Promethean Sun

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Promethean Sun

Postby shadowhawk2008 » Fri May 13, 2011 5:55 am

Now that people have started receiving this wonderful novella, what is going on in it?

Characters? plots? how did Vulkan and the Emperor meet? What is going on on 154-4? Does it talk about Vulkan fighting Dark Eldar on Nocturne? Does it mention the Firedrake contest?

Do we see how Vulkan meets with Corax and Ferrus? He had a special gun given to him by Ferrus didn't he?

Any particular legion doctrines? Their organization? The Promethean Cult?

Tell me!

;)
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby reds8n » Fri May 13, 2011 11:28 am

I'm only a third or so of the way into it now.

We do indeed get to read about Vulkan and his homeworld, and indeed their first fight against the dusk wraiths.
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby shadowhawk2008 » Fri May 13, 2011 12:39 pm

Details please!

;)

Offhand question, is the Salamanders' famous Land Raider (?) mentioned in the novella?
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby Xisor » Fri May 13, 2011 3:24 pm

No, the famous LR isn't mentioned.

Overall

I really rather enjoyed it. Happy with sacrificing my beloved £40 to get this. (Buoyed/mitigated somewhat by the overwhelming awesome of Necromunda Omnibus 1.)

A singular criticism for Promethean Sun, and one which reduces it from a 4-star to a three 3-star, is that it extends the fight scenes in ways which add nothing.

Though I frequently feel a little 'bah' about Aaron Dembski-Bowden's habit of skipping big fight scenes and just revealing the end, I can happily say I wish Kyme had done that here.

Though I appreciated the place Heka'tan's arc in the first 60 pages has, and I enjoyed reading it, for the novella...I just don't think it's justified. Not when Kyme can do much more interesting things with his words than prolonged marine-and-human-versus-eldar.

I imagine markers of essays must find this. 'Waffle'. Well written, but not adding anything/much. A good book, but could've been tightened/more focussed.


Spoilers?

Heka'tan, Bannon and Gravius are all seen.

Mortarion features via hologram.

Ferrus Manus was reminiscent of Fulgrim, but it irked me a lot that Kyme didn't realise that side of Vulkan. He bemoans a loneliness, perhaps more than any other primarchs. He (Vulkan) notes his only bond of serious fraternity is to Horus, but doesn't even pause to speculate on the Fulgrim/Ferrus duality, especially when Kyme notes Vulkan aspires to aesthetic creation contrasted with Ferrus' functional focus. One would imagine he'd be inclined to be either jealous and/or curious as to Ferrus' closes relationship with Fulgrim! But this doesn't happen. Humbug.

OVERUSE OF SHALLOW FIRE/ANVIL METAPHOR.

On the upside, it wasn't as bad as Forgotten Sons for the 'these feel like normal Salamanders' side of things. Which was pretty serious in FS, as they felt almost exactly like 40k Salamanders.

154-4 is an Exodite World. Underneath the Webway gate there's a proto-dark Eldar cult temple holding Vulkan's old Nocturnian sanguine-rival Breughar-killing Wych. Three menhirs about the planet, all destroyed. (The cool Vulkan-drops-from-a-Stormbird-and-smashes-the-menhir scene was worth not-skipping, but of all the combat in the book, that was probably the only combat bit that seriously added [save Bannon's bit, which would've made a sensible and brief opening scene] to the story, mainly because of the COOL).

The humans of 154-4 were beholden to the Eldar, thus couldn't be saved. Vulkan realises this, after having berated Ferrus & Morty for careless rules on the civilians, and orders the purge.

Vulkan's haunted/taunted/visited by a fake-remembrancer who might as well be the Emperor.

The Emperor-as-Outlander reveals to Vulkan that, as the most compassionate of his sons, he has the role of grounding them when He leaves them in the future.

Personally, I saw all of this as tying very well into my crackpot theory that Vulkan is instrumental in forming the Inquisition. Kyme noted that Vulkan was very anti-Inquisition-style, but then I'd say Kyme was lacking in retrovision: the Inquisition doesn't become BURN THE HERETIC until after the Age of Apostasy. Prior to that they're super-secret-powerful agents battling for the Emperor's Soul.

Vulkan has angst/assertion about being a Warrior and not a (Black-)Smiter [Racist much? :roll: :lol: ] in a pleasingly anti-Magnus/anti-Lorgar style. Unfortunately, Kyme doesn't elucidate on this in Vulkan's mind, he doesn't speculate on why he's allowed to struggle about becoming a warrior whilst the likes of Magnus and Lorgar are able to basically flout it.

Which is to say: we could've done with more Vulkan's insight and less tedious battles.
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby Athelassan » Fri May 13, 2011 7:11 pm

I have a nasty feeling that my copy has gone missing. Apparently a package for me yesterday was left in my "designated safe place" except that... well, it wasn't there when I checked. It's possible one of my housemates has already picked it up, but I'm not going to hold my breath... :(

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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby shadowhawk2008 » Fri May 13, 2011 7:53 pm

Xisor wrote:Spoilers?

Heka'tan, Bannon and Gravius are all seen.

Who is Bannon again? I know Gravius is from Salamander and Heka'tan is from Forgotten Sons.

Mortarion features via hologram.

Thats too bad. I was hoping for another writer's perspective on him. Jim Swallow did a nice job with him in FotE and it only left me wanting more. Ah well.

Ferrus Manus was reminiscent of Fulgrim, but it irked me a lot that Kyme didn't realise that side of Vulkan. He bemoans a loneliness, perhaps more than any other primarchs. He (Vulkan) notes his only bond of serious fraternity is to Horus, but doesn't even pause to speculate on the Fulgrim/Ferrus duality, especially when Kyme notes Vulkan aspires to aesthetic creation contrasted with Ferrus' functional focus. One would imagine he'd be inclined to be either jealous and/or curious as to Ferrus' closes relationship with Fulgrim! But this doesn't happen. Humbug.

Thats actually interesting. These two have some similar philosophies that are quite different. A nice mix of both I think. An exploration of that relationship between them would have been welcome. Especially since Graham explored that same relationship between Fulgrim and Ferrus.

Is it Corax then who had some sort of falling out with Horus then? I remember reading something about that. It was along the lines of Corax saw something dark on Horus's nature and it really really irked him.


OVERUSE OF SHALLOW FIRE/ANVIL METAPHOR.

On the upside, it wasn't as bad as Forgotten Sons for the 'these feel like normal Salamanders' side of things. Which was pretty serious in FS, as they felt almost exactly like 40k Salamanders.

That is a criticism I have read a lot recently about Forgotten Sons.

154-4 is an Exodite World. Underneath the Webway gate there's a proto-dark Eldar cult temple holding Vulkan's old Nocturnian sanguine-rival Breughar-killing Wych. Three menhirs about the planet, all destroyed. (The cool Vulkan-drops-from-a-Stormbird-and-smashes-the-menhir scene was worth not-skipping, but of all the combat in the book, that was probably the only combat bit that seriously added [save Bannon's bit, which would've made a sensible and brief opening scene] to the story, mainly because of the COOL).

Unsure of the reference about Breughar here. Is that a proto Dark Eldar character?

The humans of 154-4 were beholden to the Eldar, thus couldn't be saved. Vulkan realises this, after having berated Ferrus & Morty for careless rules on the civilians, and orders the purge.

Again another interesting point. Faced with something like this, how would Tu'shan's Salamanders react?

Vulkan's haunted/taunted/visited by a fake-remembrancer who might as well be the Emperor.

Could you explain this bit more?

The Emperor-as-Outlander reveals to Vulkan that, as the most compassionate of his sons, he has the role of grounding them when He leaves them in the future.

Grounding the legions or the Imperium in general? This is again interesting (i like that word :P ). Sanguinius actually to me has always come off as quite compassionate. Vulkan being attributed that aspect is unexpected slightly, although not so much given how the Salamanders in 40K act.

Personally, I saw all of this as tying very well into my crackpot theory that Vulkan is instrumental in forming the Inquisition. Kyme noted that Vulkan was very anti-Inquisition-style, but then I'd say Kyme was lacking in retrovision: the Inquisition doesn't become BURN THE HERETIC until after the Age of Apostasy. Prior to that they're super-secret-powerful agents battling for the Emperor's Soul.

Indeed. The Ordo Hereticus simply emerged as much too powerful in its potential power and influence. Vulkan being somehow responsible for the Inquisition proper is thought-provoking, especially if this is after he disappears from Nocturne.

Vulkan has angst/assertion about being a Warrior and not a (Black-)Smiter [Racist much? :roll: :lol: ] in a pleasingly anti-Magnus/anti-Lorgar style. Unfortunately, Kyme doesn't elucidate on this in Vulkan's mind, he doesn't speculate on why he's allowed to struggle about becoming a warrior whilst the likes of Magnus and Lorgar are able to basically flout it.

Which is to say: we could've done with more Vulkan's insight and less tedious battles.


That has been lacking outside of ATS, TFH and Legion. I have yet to finish reading PB so I don't know how Russ is in there but so far, Magnus, Lorgar and Alpharius/Omegon are the ones I have understood to a degree. The others have lacked deep insights into their actions/thoughts the way these three/four have been.
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby Xisor » Fri May 13, 2011 8:04 pm

Re: Breughar. He's the 'person who would have been champion of Hesiod had Vulkan not appeared', Vulkan notes that there wasn't any mad rivalry, just a cool, calm acceptance (seemingly a humbling fact for Vulkan) that Vulkan was really something else.

Re: Bannon. A sergeant. I forget if he's mentioned in Forgotten Sons or not, now. His role is important for Heka'tan though. (Also isn't the Raven Guard Captain who's left behind on Deliverance whilst the Dropsite Massacre happens called Bannon?)

Re: fake-remembrancer: Not really. It's confusing within the story, but deliberately so. They find a remembrancer who survived a massacre by the Eldar and Vulkan queries him. But the wee man's all sanguine and vexing. Vulkan resolves to discuss more with him later. When Vulkan asks his Pyre Guard (who're all Terrans, by the way. I liked that.) to fetch this remembrancer, no-one remembers his existence. Vulkan is portrayed as quite a distant/distracted individual throughout. Sometimes sharp/on the ball, sometimes very very distant.

Anyway, Vulkan later muses something which effectively connects this remembrancer to something the Emperor-Outlander said along the lines of "I'll always be with you" or something like that.

I'd note that I was pleasantly surprised by Jim's Mortarion in the brief scenes he has in personal conversation with Garro in Flight.

As an extra note: The Lightning Tower seriously adds to Dorn too. Not quite enough, but it gives a far deeper impression and combines well with John French's The Last Remembrancer.
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby LordLucan » Fri May 13, 2011 8:59 pm

Please tell me the Pleasure cult Eldar weren't identical to 40K dark Eldar in units and everything, liek they were that Space Wolves short story. It annoys me when they make the effort to make the 30K Imperium very different from 40K, but then don't bother with the Eldar.

Similarly, the eldar in Fulgrim were essentially Modern ulthwe craftworlders shoved into 30K.

The Eldar in 30K should be in utter disarray, without any set factions and stuff besides exodites. The craftworlds have only just survived the fall, and the dark eldar don't exist at all yet. Just the deranged remnants of the Noble Houses, and the scattered, mad corsairs who survived alongside them.
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby Xisor » Fri May 13, 2011 9:11 pm

LordLucan wrote:Please tell me the Pleasure cult Eldar weren't identical to 40K dark Eldar in units and everything, liek they were that Space Wolves short story. It annoys me when they make the effort to make the 30K Imperium very different from 40K, but then don't bother with the Eldar.

Similarly, the eldar in Fulgrim were essentially Modern ulthwe craftworlders shoved into 30K.

The Eldar in 30K should be in utter disarray, without any set factions and stuff besides exodites. The craftworlds have only just survived the fall, and the dark eldar don't exist at all yet. Just the deranged remnants of the Noble Houses, and the scattered, mad corsairs who survived alongside them.


The appearance of the 'Dark-Wraiths' ( :roll: ) on Nocturne was plainly Dark Eldar, but in the sense that it was a bunch of disparate slavers with some skiffs between them. There wasn't a huge deal made to display their difference.

The 'pleasure cultist' worshipping beneath the Wraithgate was noted to be much more culty-wych (referred to as a Witch) but except the stereotypical superfeline approach to warfare, there wasn't an overwhelming dark eldar feel, except for the slavery thing.

And even then, it was mixed in beside exodites. (I felt the exodite imagery relied a bit heavily on us being able to imagine precisely what a rapt, carnodon, stegosaur etc all were, rather than being particularly inventive with 'em.)

It was certainly superior in that regard. Also, LL, did you read Chris Wraight's Runes in Latest from the Space Marines? That shows a more positively interesting side to the DE.

(Also, given Kyme did the DE excellently in Firedrake, it baffles me why he didn't go-to-town with 'em here.)

They're not badly done in PS, but as I noted over on Warseer: it should've been a lot better. It could've been. In fact, it reminds me of the dismay my lecturers must feel when they get my more rubbish work at Uni. It just should be better.
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby shadowhawk2008 » Fri May 13, 2011 9:19 pm

Xisor wrote:Re: Breughar. He's the 'person who would have been champion of Hesiod had Vulkan not appeared', Vulkan notes that there wasn't any mad rivalry, just a cool, calm acceptance (seemingly a humbling fact for Vulkan) that Vulkan was really something else.

Not to come off like an ignorant know-it-nothing but what is the Hesiod? Is this related to Vulkan's arrival on Nocturne and his upbringing?

Re: Bannon. A sergeant. I forget if he's mentioned in Forgotten Sons or not, now. His role is important for Heka'tan though. (Also isn't the Raven Guard Captain who's left behind on Deliverance whilst the Dropsite Massacre happens called Bannon?)

Haven't read Age of Darkness :(


Re: fake-remembrancer: Not really. It's confusing within the story, but deliberately so. They find a remembrancer who survived a massacre by the Eldar and Vulkan queries him. But the wee man's all sanguine and vexing. Vulkan resolves to discuss more with him later. When Vulkan asks his Pyre Guard (who're all Terrans, by the way. I liked that.) to fetch this remembrancer, no-one remembers his existence. Vulkan is portrayed as quite a distant/distracted individual throughout. Sometimes sharp/on the ball, sometimes very very distant.

Hmmmm. The plot thickens.

Anyway, Vulkan later muses something which effectively connects this remembrancer to something the Emperor-Outlander said along the lines of "I'll always be with you" or something like that.

So it is kind of how B&C's Dornian Heresy (terrible overall) shows the 'relationship' between Corax and Emperor with the Emperor supposedly always appearing to Corax in the form of a Raven until we find out that this really is Tzeentch. Hah.

Anyways, seriously speaking. This is quite interesting. Makes you question if the Emperor had a similar connection with the other dissatisfied primarchs like Perturabo or Angron? Or even with Magnus?


I'd note that I was pleasantly surprised by Jim's Mortarion in the brief scenes he has in personal conversation with Garro in Flight.

Huh?

As an extra note: The Lightning Tower seriously adds to Dorn too. Not quite enough, but it gives a far deeper impression and combines well with John French's The Last Remembrancer.


Ah yes. The Lightning Tower. had forgotten that. Is that the one with the conversation between Dorn and Malcador just before the Siege of Terra begins or something?

Thanks for all the details though :)

LordLucan wrote:Please tell me the Pleasure cult Eldar weren't identical to 40K dark Eldar in units and everything, liek they were that Space Wolves short story. It annoys me when they make the effort to make the 30K Imperium very different from 40K, but then don't bother with the Eldar.

Similarly, the eldar in Fulgrim were essentially Modern ulthwe craftworlders shoved into 30K.

The Eldar in 30K should be in utter disarray, without any set factions and stuff besides exodites. The craftworlds have only just survived the fall, and the dark eldar don't exist at all yet. Just the deranged remnants of the Noble Houses, and the scattered, mad corsairs who survived alongside them.


I agree. While I liked Bulveye and the Thirteenth Great Company getting a nod in that short story, the Dark Eldar were quite confusing. I tried to rationalize it by theorizing that perhaps they were one of the 'original' cultists who had been raiding the planet for a while. But it just didn't make sense.

Am not good with Eldar differences in 30K/40K but how are the Ulthwe Eldar acting like 40k Eldar?
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby LordLucan » Fri May 13, 2011 11:40 pm

Ulthwe were acting like 40K Ulthwe by having identical units, Eldrad came across pretty much identical to his later 40K self. You could take that eldar scene, remove references to the eldar and remove Fulgrim, and pretty much be able to slot it into a 40k plot. Defending a maiden world is almost a standard 40K eldar plot to be honest. The craftworld civilisation had only really came about by M31, when the eldar fell. They are as new as the Imperium is at that point. They should be as different as the Imperium becomes. Yet Eldrad seems to treat the fall the same way 40K eldar do. The one interesting thing was his attempt to prevent a 'human fall' situation.

Xisor: A shame. But the pleasure cultist sounds interesting.
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby schaferwhat‽ » Sat May 14, 2011 12:26 am

Didn't the craftworld eldar hit the craftworlds before the fall when it became clear something was going to happen (a bit like how the exodites moved away from the old Eldar Empire)? In which case considering the Path structure that formed on the Craftworlds (which I believe happened before the fall though maybe didn't get so regimented without a thirsting god existing to endanger souls) that Craftworlds would've been fairly simular to how they run now, heck especially with the prospect of she who thirsts existing they'd get their stuff together pretty quickly.

Dark Eldar on the other hand would take a while to get to where they get. The Kabals wouldn't have gained ascendancy yet (though would've existed) although there is the lack of sync between webway temporality and that of reality (in which case pockets of the webway could let the Dark Eldar advance quickly experiencing time quicker).

I also think that each craftworld would develop at a different pace but ultimately the fall is the end of the Eldar Empire, from then on out every faction of Eldarity pretty much either exists in status or anthropies. Progress isn't made the Eldar find the quickest most sustainable way to survive post fall according to the philosophies of their grouping and no move to progress and build up is ever made again.

That said "Eldar, the fall, and how they responded, a discussion and a timeline" would probably be best served in its own thread.
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby Xisor » Sat May 14, 2011 1:07 am

One wonders how much of the Fall civilisation was dictated by its treatment in the Horus Heresy. Prior to Graham's introduction of it in Fulgrim we have... Gav Thorpe's A Torturer's Tale and the vague mention of Eldar's warning to the Emperor.

I have a nagging suspicion that Graham could've really went to town in Fulgrim and introduced a radical, transitory Craftworld system. Perhaps ultra-path-ridden society; think the Darmok episode of Star Trek: Next Generation, Picard has to communicate-to-survive with an alien who only communicate via cultural reference and symbolic historical analogies. E.g. the Eldar who'd spurned their non-traditional brethren so-much-so that they just can't allow themselves to indulge in any wayward activity, such that even contemplating warning the humans required a massive break from their super-rigid societies.

There's plenty of ways that the 30k Eldar could've been done in an interesting way. Instead we get Fulgrim strangling a Wraithlord. Or was it an Avatar? Or whatever it was.

Now, however, to go an 'exotic' route with the 30k Craftworld Eldar, they de-facto have to be a small, obscure, non-representative set of oddballs. Or Iyanden.

Cue: fanfic!

EDIT: I mean to say, Schafe's points are technically valid. The versions we are now presented with are not somehow wrong or retcons or anything. Much in the same way as Kyme's might-as-well-be-40k Salamanders in Forgotten Sons aren't wrong and Graham McNeill's fully-formed-Empire-with-no-changes-to-be-expected-in-the-next-2k5-years alleged to be seen in the culmination of his Sigmar trilogy isn't wrong.

It's rather that they're uninventive and seem, more than a little bit, indicative of the author simply not bothering to consider the implications of what they're writing.

You wouldn't see Matt Farrer or Aaron D-B do this!

EDIT 2: Contrast with what Dan Abnett does in Legion. Here we get the Eldar being involved but, as is obvious in the text, this is an outre Eldar movement, not one that is necessarily representative of a larger Eldar faction. Indeed, the Cabal seem much more akin to a conclave of radicals than anything else I'd care to consider! Abnett made a few odd decisions with Legion, but the vast bulk of them I like, on reflection.
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby schaferwhat‽ » Sat May 14, 2011 1:23 am

Fulgrim was earlier in the Horus Heresy cycle to be fair but do readers of Promethean Sun have any reason to suggest that folks like Lucy and myself should fear that the Heresy talking shops are all about the Imperium and how to create it and focusing on the astartes to the detriment of decent xenos action.

(I got glared at and told to shut up many times at BLL! for mentioning that the Squats hadn't been eaten by Tyranids during the Heresy).

That said it's been a bugbear of mine since day dot that the Heresy is all about Primarchs and Astartes (in an old school biblical war in heaven kinda thing which fits with the angels of death and being set in space) when there is the Imperial Army and other bits that could be dealt with. It's doing Imperial Faith well at the moment, assassins got their moment in the sun and the inquisition is being hinted at. No one has suggested why the guard and the navy got seperated yet.
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby Xisor » Sat May 14, 2011 1:37 am

schaferwhat‽ wrote:Fulgrim was earlier in the Horus Heresy cycle to be fair but do readers of Promethean Sun have any reason to suggest that folks like Lucy and myself should fear that the Heresy talking shops are all about the Imperium and how to create it and focusing on the astartes to the detriment of decent xenos action.


Yes. But not because of the contents of PS. It's not what you're after, as the Exodites might as well be any old jungle inhabitant. For all their power, it's the odd psyker and the (unfortunately generic small//flying-ridden-medium/medium/large/OHMYGODITSADRAGON) beasts who're the real foes. So, to that extent, it's a bit like Descent of Angels. In truthful terms, we've not really had genuinely interesting xenos since...Legion and, before that, Horus Rising? (The Laer were almost interesting. And I had a vaguely positive impression of those in Flight. For TFH Aaron noted he'd resolved to 'stay focussed' away from Xenos.)

I fear you've persuaded me. Again: we need Werner & Farrer on this. Desperately.

schaferwhat‽ wrote:(I got glared at and told to shut up many times at BLL! for mentioning that the Squats hadn't been eaten by Tyranids during the Heresy).


True. At least they've made some overtones about them. The Outremar, that 'squat machinist' indonesian bloke in Mechanicum and the Outremar bodies raining from the sky again in Prospero Burns...hmm...

schaferwhat‽ wrote:That said it's been a bugbear of mine since day dot that the Heresy is all about Primarchs and Astartes (in an old school biblical war in heaven kinda thing which fits with the angels of death and being set in space) when there is the Imperial Army and other bits that could be dealt with. It's doing Imperial Faith well at the moment, assassins got their moment in the sun and the inquisition is being hinted at. No one has suggested why the guard and the navy got seperated yet.


I thought Ben Counter was going to go for it, to be honest. If you switch off your 'bleargh' faculties when reading Battle for the Abyss you can see Ben has set himself up (I feel he did it deliberately, i.e. got the good idea, but then failed to execute it properly) well to detail lots of interesting possibilities: Astartes/Naval intrigue, backstory of some 'rag tag' navies being woven together, the whole Ultramarine-with-faith angle, hell: they even visit Hydraphur! (Where the Emperor supposedly signed-off on a Rogue Trader Warrant [cref: Legacy] and, in obvious connection to Farrer's other stuff, where there's a mega-load of stuff surely to be dealt with regarding the Adeptus Arbites.)

Which is to say: I agree. Whilst the HH novels have been excellent so far, a great many of them really are still lacking in certain ambitions.

And it's compounded when we get dozens of pages in a limited edition guarunteed-to-make-£90k novella dedicated to 'space marine x bludgeons enemy y in setting z'. I don't think there's a valid excuse in non-Aaron D-B authors saying 'there just wasn't room in the book'. Why? Because looking at the first halves of Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns there was plenty of stuff that could've been condensed and, at least, opened up a few pages here and there.

More-so for other less notable books.

(Even Nemesis suffers in this way, though at least it was making an effort whilst suffering: the Assassins were all essentially 'fully formed' then. The Imperial-Sanction isn't yet complete, but the actual clades themselves are, excepting the C'tan Phase Sword, effectively indistinguishable from their 40k selves.)
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby schaferwhat‽ » Sat May 14, 2011 1:53 am

I dunno with Nemesis, I think the Assassin Temples. I think the assassin temples push the boat allot further by the 41st millenium, in much the same way as Astartes are more humane in the 30k, the Assassins have an air of humanity that gets stripped away.

I suppose there is the danger of "world/galaxy building" getting in the way of "storytelling" but to be honest the good thoughtful provocative, imaginative world building in the heresy is a delight, I can stomach a thousand sons in a way I can't with Fulgrim because even when the story isn't going anywhere quickly and lots of details are being thrown in it's stuff that enhances my take on 30k and 40k whereas Fulgrim just became a slog to read. I don't think Jim had any intention of throwing a light on the formation of the assassin temples (which happened pre-heresy anyways. Truly we don't even know if it is the individuals who started the temples who are at the secret meetings either).

The other argument is that the heresy isn't about aliens, it's about the Imperium but if we're using the "setting" arguement for why they aren't doing a coherent clear narrative between the books then it is almost like saying that Belgians aren't really involved in WW2.
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby sigillite » Sat May 14, 2011 12:44 pm

At which point does the HH series switch from a storyline to a setting? World building in the 40k setting is less complicated as there's no set storyline to adhere to as opposed to the HH series with a definitive beginning and end (and also frequent and loud fan pressure to move the storyline forward). Perhaps when the series has run it's course the setting can still be explored through various other factions and species.

I would think that with the Eldar having far,far longer life spans than humans, they would undergo a less drastic transformation than the Imperium would in 10k yrs.
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby LordLucan » Sat May 14, 2011 1:28 pm

schaf: As an aside, the Kabals did not exist until M35-36, after the Old Pre-Fall Noble Houses were effectively destroyed. Even the Concept of 'Dark Eldar' didn't start until M32, with the foundation of the 'Cult of the Black heart' (not yet a Kabal) under the recently escaped slave Vect.
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby shadowhawk2008 » Sat May 14, 2011 7:58 pm

As spoilers, any details on legion organization? numbers? ranks - functional or honour? Do the Salamanders have any special name for their legion or the primarch?
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby Athelassan » Sun May 15, 2011 4:39 pm

sigillite wrote:frequent and loud fan pressure to move the storyline forward

IMO, at least, these people need to be quiet and BL needs to ignore them. It seems Dan agrees, to judge by his comments at BLL!

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