Promethean Sun

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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby Xisor » Sun May 15, 2011 8:35 pm

shadowhawk2008 wrote:As spoilers, any details on legion organization? numbers? ranks - functional or honour? Do the Salamanders have any special name for their legion or the primarch?


Numbers: Two companies (5th and 14th) deployed roughly four-hundred Legionaries. No indication as to whether that was the entire might, or just sections of the two. The Salamanders' Flamer Division were, it seems composed almost entirely of flamer-wielding Legionaries if my reading was correct. Due to being mauled by 'big dinosaur stereotypes', they were later redistributed through the ranks of the companies.

Ranks: Pyre Guard. Warriors who make up Vulkan's 'personal guard'. Numeon, first captain & equerry to Vulkan (I think, am I misremembering that?) is also a Pyre Guard. Pyre Guard were, at this time, all Terrans.

"I am Primarch Vulkan of the Salamanders Legion. You may call me Primarch Vulkan of the Salamanders Legion."

No special names recalled, your honour.

@Ath (& Dan Abnett): Agreed.
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby shadowhawk2008 » Sun May 15, 2011 8:45 pm

Xisor wrote:Ranks: Pyre Guard. Warriors who make up Vulkan's 'personal guard'. Numeon, first captain & equerry to Vulkan (I think, am I misremembering that?) is also a Pyre Guard. Pyre Guard were, at this time, all Terrans.


Isn't it really interesting and suggestive that there is a Chaos Space Marines warband called "The Pyre"?
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby Xisor » Sun May 15, 2011 8:58 pm

shadowhawk2008 wrote:
Xisor wrote:Ranks: Pyre Guard. Warriors who make up Vulkan's 'personal guard'. Numeon, first captain & equerry to Vulkan (I think, am I misremembering that?) is also a Pyre Guard. Pyre Guard were, at this time, all Terrans.


Isn't it really interesting and suggestive that there is a Chaos Space Marines warband called "The Pyre"?


...no?

Well, yes. I suppose GW are a bit uninverntive when it comes to reusing/imagining names. (Glares at Nick Kyme and his firemanders of flame.)

Given the pre-eminence of the enemies in the Salamanders novels, I'm not too worried about 'em.
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby David Earle » Wed May 18, 2011 12:18 am

Xisor wrote:"I am Primarch Vulkan of the Salamanders Legion. You may call me Primarch Vulkan of the Salamanders Legion."

No special names recalled, your honour.


If any of the Primarchs were going to avoid fancy titles, it would be Vulkan. ;)

Read it. Enjoyed it. Didn't even think about timeline issues with the Eldar. Loved the insights into Vulkan's character: nothing really surprising, but well-written. Probably won't be buying any more of these special editions, unless one looks really cool: the cost alone I could justify, but add in shipping and its too much for my budget.
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby Ogun » Sat May 21, 2011 1:45 pm

shadowhawk2008 wrote:As spoilers, any details on legion organization? numbers? ranks - functional or honour? Do the Salamanders have any special name for their legion or the primarch?


The Pyre guard seem to be drawn from the Firedrakes, an inner circle as it were. Other members are listed as Varrun, Atanarius, Ganne, Leodrakk, Skatar'var and Igataron. 7 members presumably representing each of the 7 chief settlements of Nocturne.

The legion also appear to make a fair use of conversion beamers as well.

Another interesting point PS raises is that Ferrus Manus, just as at Istvaan V, is the overall commander. Despite the fact the world is designated as 154-4, so it was discovered by the Salamanders, Ferrus for some reason is put in charge? It seems to tie in a bit with comments from FotE and False Gods. Mortarion commenting that the Death Guard should arrive last as they are the 14th Legion (Emperors Children the 3rd, World Eaters the 12th). While in False Gods Horus seems bitter about the fact that Lion El'Jonson keeps rubbing it in that his legion is the 1st. In PS and at Istvaan the 10th primarch seems to be the overall commander (albeit collaboratively to a degree) over the 14th and 18th, and 18th and 19th legions respectively. It does seem suggestive that there was a pecking order (man that would have made a good Raven Guard pun :D !) based on legion number. It would add a whole new dimension to some of the discontent over Horus, the 16th Primarch, being raised to Warmaster.
I can't imagine though this was a hard and fast rule if it existed. Imagine Guilliman ceding overall command if Angron turns up? :?

The idea that the remembrancer Verace might have been the Emperor (or his psychic image) does raise the question again of course about how much the Emperor knows about what is happening in the lead up to the Heresy, considering that PS is set post-Ullanor?
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby shadowhawk2008 » Sat May 21, 2011 2:35 pm

Thanks for the info Ogun :) Really interesting stuff.

And that's a very though-provoking insight. Horus is the most pre-eminent primarch because of his deeper bond with the Emperor, being superbly capably doesn't hurt either. The others either make do based either on their frightful abilities or because they are capable AND higher in the pecking order.
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby Xisor » Sat May 21, 2011 2:45 pm

Ogun: I'm not sure it's a seve-for-the-settlements thing, they were all Terrans. (Then again, perhaps Vulkan paired them off that way to encourage information/fraternity exchanges.)

Ogun wrote:Another interesting point PS raises is that Ferrus Manus, just as at Istvaan V, is the overall commander. Despite the fact the world is designated as 154-4, so it was discovered by the Salamanders, Ferrus for some reason is put in charge? It seems to tie in a bit with comments from FotE and False Gods. Mortarion commenting that the Death Guard should arrive last as they are the 14th Legion (Emperors Children the 3rd, World Eaters the 12th). While in False Gods Horus seems bitter about the fact that Lion El'Jonson keeps rubbing it in that his legion is the 1st. In PS and at Istvaan the 10th primarch seems to be the overall commander (albeit collaboratively to a degree) over the 14th and 18th, and 18th and 19th legions respectively. It does seem suggestive that there was a pecking order (man that would have made a good Raven Guard pun :D !) based on legion number. It would add a whole new dimension to some of the discontent over Horus, the 16th Primarch, being raised to Warmaster.
I can't imagine though this was a hard and fast rule if it existed. Imagine Guilliman ceding overall command if Angron turns up? :?


I see where you are with this, but I can't help but think please, please, don't let this be the case.

Ranking the Primarchs by order of finding? Good. Ensuring 1:1 coordination between order of finding and order of creation? I'm less happy with that. It's neat foretelling with Magnus and his Thousand Sons, for everyone? Nah.

The unfortunate side of that, though, is I think you're correct in your summation. That there probably is, as far as Nick is concerned, a pecking order which ties to Legion number. I'd prefer if it tied to order of discovery (and, more than that, actual physical age). I think it's another sorely missed opportunity: the authors haven't discussed relative age/experience of the Primarchs. Horus was found early and spent most of his time with the Emperor/Great Crusade: he's much more Imperial than he was ever Cthonian.

But how long, relatively, did Vulkan spend on Nocturne and then in the GC? What of Lorgar? Or Rogal Dorn? Or Ferrus Manus?

(Hypothetically: Dorn might have spent centuries on and around Inwit and been discovered not long after Horus, so over a century of being Imperial, yet with lots of non-Imperial foundation too, whilst Alpharius might have been deployed for only a decade pre-discovery and even then only active in the GC for a decade or two! That would make Alpharius, by rights, massively less experienced than Dorn.)

Ogun wrote:The idea that the remembrancer Verace might have been the Emperor (or his psychic image) does raise the question again of course about how much the Emperor knows about what is happening in the lead up to the Heresy, considering that PS is set post-Ullanor?


Indeed, it's a very fair question. Though, there is room for alternates too.
1- It's part of the Emperor's 'godliness' that's not necessarily directly under his control. Did the Emperor know about his involvement in Ing Mae Sing's miracle against the daemon (or was it a side effect of projecting his personality across the warp via the Astronomican and trying to protect all of humanity in a latent manner)?
2- It might have been Malcador!

Furthermore, it might have been a personal connection with Vulkan. Or between Vulkan and the Emperor's godly/star-child-esque side. Where Lorgar wanted his relation with the Emperor to be as between Pope and God, perhaps Vulkan's ... was?

Of course, it's not at all plain or well-indicated in the text that any of my suspicions are correct, there is room for them. And this line could afford thought towards Vulkan going religious rather than Inquisitorial.
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby Ogun » Sat May 21, 2011 6:41 pm

Ogun: I'm not sure it's a seve-for-the-settlements thing, they were all Terrans. (Then again, perhaps Vulkan paired them off that way to encourage information/fraternity exchanges.)


Certainly they are not representatives personally of the settlements, but perhaps rather Vulkan chooses to have 7 Pyre Guard as a symbolic nod to them.

I
see where you are with this, but I can't help but think please, please, don't let this be the case.

Ranking the Primarchs by order of finding? Good. Ensuring 1:1 coordination between order of finding and order of creation? I'm less happy with that. It's neat foretelling with Magnus and his Thousand Sons, for everyone? Nah.

The unfortunate side of that, though, is I think you're correct in your summation. That there probably is, as far as Nick is concerned, a pecking order which ties to Legion number. I'd prefer if it tied to order of discovery (and, more than that, actual physical age). I think it's another sorely missed opportunity: the authors haven't discussed relative age/experience of the Primarchs. Horus was found early and spent most of his time with the Emperor/Great Crusade: he's much more Imperial than he was ever Cthonian.

But how long, relatively, did Vulkan spend on Nocturne and then in the GC? What of Lorgar? Or Rogal Dorn? Or Ferrus Manus?

(Hypothetically: Dorn might have spent centuries on and around Inwit and been discovered not long after Horus, so over a century of being Imperial, yet with lots of non-Imperial foundation too, whilst Alpharius might have been deployed for only a decade pre-discovery and even then only active in the GC for a decade or two! That would make Alpharius, by rights, massively less experienced than Dorn.)


It's an interesting debate definitely. It seems curious if there is a pecking order based on legion number for the very reasons of experience you outline. I think, as Shadowhawk comments, that it is probably a mixture. Why Ferrus is placed in charge of both 154-4 and Istvaan V is never explained. Certainly it is never indicated that he is an unusually gifted strategist among the primarchs and in fact he seems to have been rather hot headed. At Istvaan V he has not even got his entire legion with him yet still has command.

The quote from False Gods is quite interesting as regards to this.
'And don't get me started on the Lion.'
'Of the Dark Angels? His is the First Legion is it not?'
'It is,' replied Horus, 'and doesn't he just love to remind everyone of that. I could see in his eyes that he thought he should have been Warmaster because his Legion was the first.'


Maybe the emphasis is on in fact upon the Legion not the primarch? The First are the oldest and most experienced legion, hypothetically. The 16th is the glory hound younger sibling outstripping its elders. The Alpha Legion, as you comment, have only been in service a few decades and don't have the prestige, as is remarked on in Legion. I'm not sure if it is ever made clear that all the legions had actually been formed by the time the GC commenced?
It does add an interesting new slant on the Imperial Fist/Iron Warriors rivalry as well, the older 4th outshone and passed over by the younger 7th? It would be interesting to see if they ever make any more of this?

It is certainly something for us to chew over in the mean time! :)
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby shadowhawk2008 » Sat May 21, 2011 6:51 pm

Ogun that sounds like an awesome debate :)

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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby Ogun » Sat May 21, 2011 8:10 pm

shadowhawk2008 wrote: Ogun that sounds like an awesome debate :)
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby shadowhawk2008 » Sat May 21, 2011 8:14 pm

Just create a new thread :) Linky is at the top of each forum. I'd just like to continue that discussion separately.

That said, I do like the 'numerology' of the Pyre Guard. And what it means for the legion, later to be known as chapter.

From the Salamander books by Nick Kyme, I do not recall there being any mention of Pyre Guard. So I wonder if he made that rank especially for the legion, in order to keep some differences alive between the Salamadners of 30k and those of 40k. Not to mention that 7 is the number for Nurgle. Nuances abound! haha
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby Xisor » Sat May 21, 2011 8:36 pm

shadowhawk2008 wrote:That said, I do like the 'numerology' of the Pyre Guard. And what it means for the legion, later to be known as chapter.

From the Salamander books by Nick Kyme, I do not recall there being any mention of Pyre Guard. So I wonder if he made that rank especially for the legion, in order to keep some differences alive between the Salamadners of 30k and those of 40k. Not to mention that 7 is the number for Nurgle. Nuances abound! haha


'Tis the trouble with numerology, after all. You can count anything and ascribe it to anything. I really hope one of the HH authors reads some Umberto Eco or Borges before/during writing their next book. Dan had some excellent overtures in Prospero Burns.

The sevens thing would be even more interesting if we found the companies organised in 7s. E.g. A company is composed of seven squads of seven Legionaries. Accompanying the seven squads will be a number drawn from the pool of forty-nine specialists: seven Apothecaries, seven Librarians, seven Techmarines, seven crack vehicles pilots/drivers, seven sergeants, seven moral-boosting/Nikaea-enforcing/iterator-like chaplains, seven ancients (dreadnoughts or Tactical-Dreadnought armoured) or seven starship commanders (Expeditionary Salamanders?).

That way, the Salamanders could highly numerologicified (or done in a more interesting and mystical way than just 'all sevens' like I blurted above) yet also immensely overburdened with specialists!

I.e. for every 'seven legionaries' (i.e. comparable to, at least, 40k's Devastators in their progression away from being scouts), i.e. squad of seven, you'd have another seven who're all actually highly specialised (i.e. librarians, veterans, techmarines etc)!

But no, that's not what we're actually seeing. Instead, it's a mundane almost-codex setup of companies-captains-honour guard-primarch. With some specialists, but they were dispersed into the legion's normal squads.

How big's a Salamander squad? 10 men? 7? 12? We don't know, but there's a whole big wealth of information there that can be used to invest the story with more than pages of bolter-sword-kill-xenos tedium!
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby shadowhawk2008 » Sat May 21, 2011 8:38 pm

Xisor wrote:We don't know, but there's a whole big wealth of information there that can be used to invest the story with more than pages of bolter-sword-kill-xenos tedium!


I completely agree :roll:
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby Major Rawne » Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:33 pm

Having not long ago finished this novela I must say I most enjoyed it from start to finish. There is a part of me that wishes it had been longer to allow for some more delving into Vulkans origins, but perhaps that is for another time.

I don't think it has been brought up already (too many words in the topic to read), but the one thing I really enjoyed reading was a moment of kinship between brothers that I don't think we have really seen in the Heresy series so far. It was the moment in the final battle, where Ferrus seemingly goes out of his way to save a boy caught up in the conflict. I just had this great feeling that while it wasn't in his nature to do such a thing, he did it for the sake of his brother, Vulkan.

I can't help but wonder at other conflicts during Crusade, and if there are other such touching examples of one Primarch going out of his way for a brother, when it isn't in their nature and when the didn't have to.
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Re: Promethean Sun

Postby Sir Kev » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:29 pm

It is currently circulating with my friends, they are pretty envious that they cant complete their collections but at least they get to read it........all is well in the world! :mrgreen:
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