The Arrested Fall [Alternate 30K][UPDATES GALORE!]

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Re: The Arrested Fall [Alternate 30K]

Postby Blinded » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:12 pm

LordLucan wrote:The first is Kaela Mensha Khaine, the God of Wrath, murder, exile and war. His human followers call him simply 'Khorne', a corrupted version of his true title.


Khaine and Khorne are indeed very similar and Khorne might indeed have stolen some (or a very huge chunk) of Khaine's rule and power after the fall but to slap them into one being? But Khorne existed even before Khaine was dismantled in this universe.

I'm using the old reference from old GW material where Khorne was born in middle ages and Nurgle during the Black Death (as if the Galaxy is revolving around one tiny world called Earth... Hah!). Even if these events are just unhappy coincident (or more likely were shockwaves of birth of those Dark Gods) this would mean Khorne and Nurgle are old and their existence is separated from Eldar Gods.

One could argue that Khaine took over Khorne after it was banished by Eldar but for an exiled (and weakening) God to take over an existing (and powerful due to all the wanton bloodshed this coup caused) is rather odd (and needs plot devices to work if you ask me).

Also there's the faithful Eldar to consider. Why would they abandon their Warrior-God especially in this hour of need and allow it to merge with Chaos God Khorne?

According to Lexicanum there's this guy "Malice" who seems to be the embodiment paradox of chaos in being enemy of itself... maybe he joined Khaine and dethroned Khorne?
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Re: The Arrested Fall [Alternate 30K]

Postby Blinded » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:29 pm

And something I just thought about: If Khaine becomes a God of Chaos there no longer will be any Exarch or Phoenix King as we know it. The Aspect system imposes a set of rules and gives Khaine's bloody murder a form of order.

I kinda think you should leave Khorne as he is and instead introduce Khaine as wandering God who acts as the Blood God's arch-rival who unlike rest of the Eldar Gods who hide with their worshipers strikes out and accept even other races into his warrior-priesthood in the name of Bloody Vengeance against all who don't follow the path of Blood.
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Re: The Arrested Fall [Alternate 30K]

Postby LordLucan » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:21 pm

No blinded, Khaine in this setting is Khorne.* Khorne is just the psychic shockwave of Khaine being branded the Bloody Handed, Khaine's fall into madness.

Without the fall and the birth of slannesh, Khaine is never shattered. He's a fully fledged god that forms the ancient basis for khorne. Khaine is older than Khorne, Khorne is just the human impression of this great and terrible war god.

The eldar hate khaine in this setting, because he is the murderer of Eldannesh and the instigator of the war in heaven, who wants to kill the eldar because Morai-Heg predicted they would one day destroy him. However, in the original timeline, Khaine redeemed himself to the eldar somewhat by fighting to protect the eldar form slannesh during its birth. Here, there is no reason for the eldar to worship a god which hates them. He stopped beign their warrior god when he tried to murder the eldar during the war in heaven.

There are no aspect warriors in this setting, no craftworlds or path system. The eldar do not need the path, as slannesh didn't cause the fall, and isn't leeching every eldar's soul anymore. Also, the PHoenix City eldar still have all the other gods on their side, and are not dead.


While I appreciate your opinions blinded, please refrain from rewriting my plot before I have even written it.

*(Liber Chaotica implies Khaine was always part of khorne, especially during the birth of slannesh visions, where khaine was depicted as the 'mechanical body' of khorne, destroyed by slannesh when Khorne tried to fight her birth)
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Re: The Arrested Fall [Alternate 30K]

Postby Blinded » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:57 pm

LordLucan wrote:
There are no aspect warriors in this setting, no craftworlds or path system. The eldar do not need the path, as slannesh didn't cause the fall, and isn't leeching every eldar's soul anymore. Also, the PHoenix City eldar still have all the other gods on their side, and are not dead.

*(Liber Chaotica implies Khaine was always part of khorne, especially during the birth of slannesh visions, where khaine was depicted as the 'mechanical body' of khorne, destroyed by slannesh when Khorne tried to fight her birth)


Did you not say Exarches fought the Rebels before being overwhelmed? I take it these Exarches (also warrior-priests of Khaine) were proto-aspect Exarches and the only difference being the paths were not so strict and divided yet.

The way I understand it while a God of Chaos might have priesthoods and cults, they exist just because mortals can't understand Chaos in its unbridled form. The Cult of Khaine (Aspect Warrior Shrines are just modified version of the old warrior-priesthood within Path system) is too old and its structure too well-defined to belong to a God of Chaos of any kind.

This kind of reminds me of those in WHF who say "Sigmar is an aspect of Ulric" and for the very same reasons.
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Re: The Arrested Fall [Alternate 30K]

Postby Tyrant » Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:39 pm

Blinded wrote: The way I understand it while a God of Chaos might have priesthoods and cults, they exist just because mortals can't understand Chaos in its unbridled form. The Cult of Khaine (Aspect Warrior Shrines are just modified version of the old warrior-priesthood within Path system) is too old and its structure too well-defined to belong to a God of Chaos of any kind.

This kind of reminds me of those in WHF who say "Sigmar is an aspect of Ulric" and for the very same reasons.


Too old to belong to a Chaos God? The Chaos Gods were created and yet have always been. Do linear concepts apply that well to them?
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Re: The Arrested Fall [Alternate 30K]

Postby LordLucan » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:59 pm

Blinded wrote:
Did you not say Exarches fought the Rebels before being overwhelmed? I take it these Exarches (also warrior-priests of Khaine) were proto-aspect Exarches and the only difference being the paths were not so strict and divided yet.



Exarches, not aspect warriors. These are the priest-soldiers of Khaine.
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Re: The Arrested Fall [Alternate 30K]

Postby Blinded » Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:24 am

LordLucan wrote:
Blinded wrote:
Did you not say Exarches fought the Rebels before being overwhelmed? I take it these Exarches (also warrior-priests of Khaine) were proto-aspect Exarches and the only difference being the paths were not so strict and divided yet.



Exarches, not aspect warriors. These are the priest-soldiers of Khaine.


My point exactly.

As you are aware the Paths are to limit an Eldar in a certain way of life at any given time and to ensure they are not too immersed into single path to avoid excess (or that's the goal anyways). And Path of the Warrior (which was afterwards divided in Aspects) is indeed a recreation of Order of Khaine, which is why those lost in this Path are called Exarch.

So you see, the Old Exarchs are like early, less specialized and more general-purpose version of Craftworld Exarchs. Kinda like relationship between Blunderbuss and Shotgun-class weapons.

The whole point is that all those ceremonies and rituals of the Aspect Shrines comes from Pre-Fall Warrior-Order of Khaine (which was made out of murderous devotee and led by original Exarchs). And as an Orderly, well-established over ages and that favores methodical murder rather than berserk rage (are Exarchs berserkers, or are they single-minded specialized killers?) it can not belong to a creature who wears mantle of God of Chaos.

Even if you look at Khaine in the Old World, despite all the "Blood for the Blood God", "Khaine does not care whose blood is spilled", fascination with rolling heads, and murder, Cult of Khaine is very well-defined and it's warriors are fighting in ranks and orderly, methodical manner rather than roaring "Blood for the Blood God! Skull for Skull Throne! Soul for the Soul Eater! Death for the Death Lord!!" or chant "Kill, Maim, Burn".

Khorne is chaos of battle incarnate and cares only for the blood spilled with martial feats, Khaine on the other hand might even favor a psyker/artistic killer for excellent mass-murder well done and not by an executioner's axe.
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Re: The Arrested Fall [Alternate 30K]

Postby Blinded » Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:40 am

And there's one, far more important thing than identity or origin of the Lord of Blood, thing to consider: He has no arch-enemy!!

While Nurgle and Tzeentch are busy being enemy of each other, The Blood God has no arch-enemy and has even an ally in Nurgle and they can gang up on Tzeentch and kick the Architect's arse big time, getting stronger and stronger and kinda ruining the game.

Back then and before birth of Slaanesh all their arse-kicking was within the Warp and one can assume this was why Khorne became the strongest of the Dark Gods: No rival and an ally in beating the only competition. It was fortunate for Tzeentch that Slaanesh was created to make the game more balanced.

Now without Slaanesh and with Khaine and Khorne being one and the same (thus no competition for title of Blood God) the Great Game might as well be rigged.
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Re: The Arrested Fall [Alternate 30K]

Postby Tyrant » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:04 am

Blinded:

Can you not at least wait for LL to actually write his background before you try and pick holes in it?
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Re: The Arrested Fall [Alternate 30K]

Postby SIngemeister » Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:37 pm

Blinded wrote:And there's one, far more important thing than identity or origin of the Lord of Blood, thing to consider: He has no arch-enemy!!

While Nurgle and Tzeentch are busy being enemy of each other, The Blood God has no arch-enemy and has even an ally in Nurgle and they can gang up on Tzeentch and kick the Architect's arse big time, getting stronger and stronger and kinda ruining the game.

Back then and before birth of Slaanesh all their arse-kicking was within the Warp and one can assume this was why Khorne became the strongest of the Dark Gods: No rival and an ally in beating the only competition. It was fortunate for Tzeentch that Slaanesh was created to make the game more balanced.

Now without Slaanesh and with Khaine and Khorne being one and the same (thus no competition for title of Blood God) the Great Game might as well be rigged.



Woah, woah, woah. Since when have any of the Chaos Gods been 'allies'? I don't think they know the meaning of the word. 'Guy I hate, but not quite as much as that other guy' is probably the closest they can get. Khorne gets too powerful? Tzeentch and Nurgle will join up to knock him down a peg. Nurgle gets too powerful? Khorne and Tzeentch become buddies and push the Plaguefather back down, etcetera, etcetera.
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Re: The Arrested Fall [Alternate 30K]

Postby Blinded » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:37 am

Tyrant wrote:
Too old to belong to a Chaos God? The Chaos Gods were created and yet have always been. Do linear concepts apply that well to them?


Indeed, however the Eldar did not see the eternal influence of Slaanesh in the Materium until the fall. Maybe they always existed in the Warp since they were created but outside of it their influence manifests itself AFTER their creation.

Also when they say Daemons and the Dark Gods are timeless and eternal, I don't think it is as literal as one might believe it to be. Firstly because the Dark Gods are not as all-knowing as this timelessness might make them and secondly there are example that do disprove this "The Chaos Gods were created and yet have always been", namely the tale of Kairos the Fateweaver and his dive into Well of Eternity.


SIngemeister wrote:Woah, woah, woah. Since when have any of the Chaos Gods been 'allies'? I don't think they know the meaning of the word. 'Guy I hate, but not quite as much as that other guy' is probably the closest they can get. Khorne gets too powerful? Tzeentch and Nurgle will join up to knock him down a peg. Nurgle gets too powerful? Khorne and Tzeentch become buddies and push the Plaguefather back down, etcetera, etcetera.


Since Fantasy Flight published "The Black Crusade". Before that the Dark Gods only had "Arch-enemy" which is also half the point I was making actually.

Khorne might hates sorcerers (unlike Khaine I might add, who is neutral to them) but Nurgle positively wants Tzeentch and all he stands for gone and the feeling is mutual (Despair=/=Hope).

Tyrant wrote:Blinded:

Can you not at least wait for LL to actually write his background before you try and pick holes in it?


Nah, where's the fun in that?

But jokes aside, I do this so that LL can consider everything carefully before writing them and have a response ready for naysayers like me, instead of trying to patch holes that might exist (or escaped his attention) later.
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Re: The Arrested Fall [Alternate 30K]

Postby HafezFromParadox » Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:38 pm

What about the Nex?
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Re: The Arrested Fall [Alternate 30K]

Postby LordLucan » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:47 pm

HafezFromParadox wrote:What about the Nex?



The Nex isn't an issue until at least 50K. This alternate timeline likewise won't have to deal with it until then, unless something goes drastically wrong. :lol:

blinded: None of your plot holes are plot holes*, because this universe is different to the current timeline. The chaos gods's origins are slightly different, each of the Primarchs' origins and subsequent legions are different, due to the massive change of the fall not happening. Khaine is different becaus eof the lack of a fall, the eldar are very different; races which died in original 30K survive, while other races that survived before die here. The traitors have different motives, and different identities.

Leave the preconceptions of what 30K should be at the door, because the fall being arrested would cause a massive butterfly effect, altering the destinies and fates of everyone in the universe.


Everything is effected by this fundamental change.



*(Of course the chaos gods could funciton as a triad. How do you think chaos worked before slannesh in the original timeline? Because they did exist, so to say this setting wouldn't work without four chaos gods is patently incorrect.)
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Re: The Arrested Fall [Alternate 30K]

Postby Blinded » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:08 pm

In my defense Tyrant called them "Plot Holes". I was just pointing out the things that made me wonder.

But considering this AU is more AU than I thought, I think I'll just have to wait for your clarification when "The Maelstrom" (will it be called Eye again?) and "the Lost and the Damned" were addressed.

Answer to *: I'd think the trio would have played "Three Kingdoms" with Khorne being Wei, Nurgle Wu, and Tzeentch Shu rather than how I described it first (with Nurgle and Khorne kicking the heck out of Tzeentch).
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Re: The Arrested Fall [Alternate 30K]

Postby LordLucan » Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:29 pm

Blinded wrote:In my defense Tyrant called them "Plot Holes". I was just pointing out the things that made me wonder.


Fair enough. Apologies for being a bit grumpy. I do appreciate your comments man.

But considering this AU is more AU than I thought, I think I'll just have to wait for your clarification when "The Maelstrom" (will it be called Eye again?) and "the Lost and the Damned" were addressed.


Why would the Maelstrom be called the Eye? Actually, I think I get where the miscommunicaiton is coming in; the Eye is a different warp anomaly to the Maelstrom. Cconfusingly, in Angel exterminatus, the Eye of Terror is originally called 'the Star Maelstrom', but it is not actually related to the Maelstrom, which is where Huron Blackheart resides in 40K. In 40k, the Maelstrom is the second biggest warp storm in the galaxy. In This alternate universe, there is no Eye of Terror, as the Eldar Empire has not fallen, and hence the locaiton where the Eye is, is the heart of the Imperial Eldar's domain.

Answer to *: I'd think the trio would have played "Three Kingdoms" with Khorne being Wei, Nurgle Wu, and Tzeentch Shu rather than how I described it first (with Nurgle and Khorne kicking the heck out of Tzeentch).
[/quote][/quote]

On a related but incidental topic: I use dto love playing the Dynasty Warriors game for PS2. Lu Bu forever! :D
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Re: The Arrested Fall [Alternate 30K]

Postby Blinded » Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:23 pm

LordLucan wrote:
Why would the Maelstrom be called the Eye? Actually, I think I get where the miscommunicaiton is coming in; the Eye is a different warp anomaly to the Maelstrom. Cconfusingly, in Angel exterminatus, the Eye of Terror is originally called 'the Star Maelstrom', but it is not actually related to the Maelstrom, which is where Huron Blackheart resides in 40K. In 40k, the Maelstrom is the second biggest warp storm in the galaxy. In This alternate universe, there is no Eye of Terror, as the Eldar Empire has not fallen, and hence the locaiton where the Eye is, is the heart of the Imperial Eldar's domain.

On a related but incidental topic: I use dto love playing the Dynasty Warriors game for PS2. Lu Bu forever! :D


I just told myself " You shalt not post again!!" but kinda failed the will test:

From a rather unreliable source (4chan) I've heard name of the "Eye of Terror was originally "Cygnus X-1" and since it glared at Perturabo and spooked him wherever he went he called it "Eye of Terror" and the name stuck. So I figured same could happen here too.

I don't like Lu Bu, what with him being " A b@stard with four fathers" who got all save perhaps the first one killed. He is prototype and more badass version of Kharn the Betrayer.
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Re: The Arrested Fall [Alternate 30K]

Postby HafezFromParadox » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:03 am

Technocracy Pilgrim Fleet = Auretians?
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Re: The Arrested Fall [Alternate 30K]

Postby LordLucan » Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:27 pm

Indeed they are hafez.
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Re: The Arrested Fall [Alternate 30K]

Postby HafezFromParadox » Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:00 pm

LordLucan wrote:because Morai-Heg predicted


Earliest point of divergence?
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Re: The Arrested Fall [Alternate 30K]

Postby LordLucan » Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:58 am

HafezFromParadox wrote:
LordLucan wrote:because Morai-Heg predicted


Earliest point of divergence?


Well not really, as Morai-Heg predicted the eldar would destroy Khaine in the original timeline too. Khaine was the on/off enemy of the eldar during the mythical and literal wars in heaven.

The original point of divergence is actually pre-fall, with Vileth realising what the eldar were unwittingly creating, and managing to hijack this process in order to develop the eldar empire how he wishes. In th eoriginal timeline, the eldar neither fully realised or cared about what was happening; that was the future, and they were focussed on the present.
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