Predator,Prey

For talking openly about the spoilers from Black Library fiction.

Predator,Prey

Postby Fenris » Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:52 pm

Quoting myself from warseer here,so if you by chance red this there skip to the end :P



First thing first:the only negative i can find is the same of I am slaughter:i wantd more of it and it could have been a regular-size novel instead of the 250-and something-pages it ended being

Second thing second: let's adress the yellow elephant in the room

Imperial fists surviors of Ardamantua:4

Of those 4,3 are killed by the AdMec "for science".

Imperial fists survivors of Ardamantua then:1

Yes,one.Out of the full chapter

BL has outdone itself in the long lasting tradition of KILL ALL THE FISTS.




We are then introduced to another space marine chapters,the Fists Exemplar.As the name suggests,they are 7th legion blood.Unsurprisingly,they suffer casualties too :shifty: With them,Sanders also adds new second founding IF chapters to his portfolio (second time he does it after the Excoriators) :D

And then,we have a small black templar crusade showing up briefly.Yep,some of them die too ;)


This leads me to the "how the hell are the IF going to continue existing up to the 40k millennium."

Well,they could rebuild from nothing (they have the geneseed on Terra and a 99.9% new founding could be masked by the imperial powers) but i think the book suggests 2 other options

Option one:
Why dont we know anything of the 5th IF secound founding chapter during the 41 millennium?Wellll....
It was the moment Dorn decided to break up his beloved Legion and embrace the Codex Astartes, creating numerous successor Chapters from his stalwart and loyal Imperial Fists. Thane loved the window not least because the Fists Exemplar had been created in that moment. Like all of the Imperial Fists Second Founding Chapters, their character came from the individuals making up their ranks. The Chapter crusaders and zealots gravitated to Sigismund, while to Alexis Polux went the younger, more impressionable brothers. Many of the attrition fighters that would make up the Excoriators had held the Palace walls during the siege of Terra and had found brotherhood with Demetrius Katafalque. It was well known that the primarch and his genetic sons struggled with the decision to break up their Legion. There were some, however, that came around to Guilliman’s wisdom – as Dorn himself did at last – swifter than others. Captain Oriax Dantalion had spoken for the sense and necessity of such drastic action among the Imperial Fists early in the process. This had initially earned Dorn’s disappointment, and some said enmity. When Dorn himself searched his soul and reached the conclusion that the window illustrated, he remembered Dantalion’s earlier wisdom. He rewarded the captain with a Chapter of his own – made up of progressive battle-brothers not unlike himself. They were deemed exemplars of the new order, and named the Fists Exemplar by the primarch.

Just think about it for a second..40k Fists are the epithome of codex astartes right behind the Ultramarines...

Option two:
‘What would you have me do?’

‘I would have you do nothing, captain. What we must do – brothers all – is gather our strength. The savages will be stopped here no more than they would have been at Aspiria. We must consult with Chapter Master Mirhen; with my own High Marshal; with Scharn; with Quesadra of the Crimson Fists and Issachar of the Excoriators. It is time for the scattered successors of all loyal Legions to join once again in defence of humanity. This will not happen here, Thane; it will not happen now. But we must be as one and ready for Dorn’s call, when it comes.’

A.k.a the blood angels solution.We know that something like that will be done in the future,why not now?Sure,at this point in the story no one,aside from the high lords and their staffs/special agents on the field,knows the Fists have been functionally wiped out but if the united 2nd founding chapters find out,the step isnt that long...

I personally bet on the first one.Anyway,not a good time to be yellow indeed...[/spoiler]

As with I am slaughter,we have different viewpoints this time too,mainly dealing with how the segmentum solar is crumbling before the ork tide

-The imperial senate.Once again Gran Master of the Assassinorum Vangorich is the main character here,and Sanders writes him as interesting as Abnett did.We see him making moves and plans for his own plan to steer the imperium on the path of non-destruction.At the same time,it shows that while he can seemingly reach all the High lords with ease,they aren't as easy to manouvre as he makes it sound.As a footnote,we are introduced in a short part to a new team of assassins,including a temple vanus operative.I'm not sure that's a first (using them,i know they have been in the bg forever) but surely it's not common

-The oceanic hive world of Undine,following a PDF officer.And here the story turns to the "there is only the laughter of thirsting gods" side of 40k...The world is doomed,the characters know it,the ending isn't pretty(the choice of placing the BT last chapter right before the Undine last chapter,connected as they are by a really tiny but important plot point,works way better than the opposite would have done for that)

-The AdMec.Easy to hate the priests of mars when shown acting the way they do here.The few that show some form of emotions or concerns above cold logic and scheming are actually considered as flawed or useless by the others...And at the same time,that cold logic leads to one disaster after the other,with just little being saved out of it so far.Can't say it's not in-character for the organisation.Also,the book underlines in more than one place how the mechanicus is more interested in it's own survival than in that of its ally,the imperium of man

-The space marines.Obviously this time the IFs dont have much pagetime >.> Their places is taken by the Fists exemplar and,in a smaller role,by the black templars Not much happening here,above bolters firing and stuff being killed.Seems more of a setup for what will come of them in the following books,because for good or worse the adeptus astartes will have to take a more important role in the events


And the orks?Well...We dont see anything from their PoV but they have more of a presence compared to the first book...And what we are shown is that...Well,numbers,strenght and technology they are unstoppable at that moment in time.

Also interesting (and maybe a little strange) a little piece that shows how 32k imperium still knows nothing about them

A magos biologist does an authopsy on an ork and he discovers
-that the brain center that controls "the understanding of technology" instead of being in the more recent (from an evolution point of view) parts of the ork brain sits in the older parts and so look to have been enginereed there from the start of the ork race (we know that's exactly it,Slaan and all)
-he detect a strange wave of energy of unknown quality that emanates even from the freshly dead bodies and that,in some way,aids their tech in working where it should not (i think i dont even have to say what that is,right? :p )

I say strange because....Well,orks have been around forever,seems odd that the imperium doesnt know at least about the waaaagh field...But then,back during the great crusade the legion armies had little need to know that..
And the lack of knowledge lends itself to the fact that the post-crusade Imperium left itself open to the orks rise[

So,at the end of this all...Thumb up for the second book too...Now off to wait another month for the third one
Thrusting his thunder hammer into the sky, he shouted—so that all could hear "Primarch.Progenitor, to your glory!"
"And to the glory of Him on Earth!" his brothers bellowed in response
-
A knight is sworn to valor. His heart knows only virtue. His blade defends the helpless. His word speaks only truth. His wrath undoes the wicked
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Re: Predator,Prey

Postby Lord of the Night » Sun Jan 10, 2016 7:01 pm

Fenris wrote:Imperial Fists survivors of Ardamantua: 4

Of those four, three are killed by the AdMec "for science".

Imperial Fists survivors of Ardamantua then: 1

Yes, one. Out of the full chapter. BL has outdone itself in the long lasting tradition of KILL ALL THE FISTS.

...

What. The. F**k...

That is the DUMBEST THING ever written in 40k. The Khornate Grey Knights, Blood Angel/Necron team-up and Kaldor Draigo were all better written then that (when HE WHO CANNOT BE NAMED wrote them) even before LJ Goulding got to the last two and made them awesome. The Imperial Fists were wiped out leaving only one guy and they weren't disbanded. The Crimson Fists were wiped out to less than one-hundred men and they were very nearly disbanded, the Astral Knights had roughly a hundred to a hundred-and-fifty men and they were disbanded after the World Engine. The Celestial Lions had only 96 marines left after Mannheim, and even less after hunting down Warboss Thogfag with Grimaldus and the Armies of Helsreach, and only Black Templars intervention kept their alive.

Yet somehow the Fists survived having only ONE guy live. One guy to carry on all the traditions, knowledge, wargear and recruitment of the Imperial Fists Chapter...

Absolute BS.


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Re: Predator,Prey

Postby Fenris » Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:28 pm

Well,i think it somehow makes sense because it's 33k,not 41k

I mean...2nd founding ->The beast is 1500 years...For marines that could be considered what...3 generations at most?They probably still have plenty of dreadnoughts from the original legion spread in the successor chpaters,differences in geneseed degeneration would not be as big as a problem as in later ages (and even then,the IF geneseed is the second most stable amongst all),the knowledge of "IF-life" would still be fresh in the second founding chapters and so on...

So,even considering only the second option i detailed above as possible (and there probably are more than those i thought of)...Well...It COULD work....



Also to note that losing a first founding chapter would be a huge moral blow,more so than losing one of the other (1000-9) ones...And so there are probably more considerations and resources to spend there...Also,Terra has the geneseed tithe of the legions,so once you gather a few "at least partially old school" marines you could rebuild from that










Or this could be stockholm syndrome speaking :?
Thrusting his thunder hammer into the sky, he shouted—so that all could hear "Primarch.Progenitor, to your glory!"
"And to the glory of Him on Earth!" his brothers bellowed in response
-
A knight is sworn to valor. His heart knows only virtue. His blade defends the helpless. His word speaks only truth. His wrath undoes the wicked
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Re: Predator,Prey

Postby Lord of the Night » Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:59 pm

Brother Lucian on Heresy posted this theory on the results of Predator, Prey;

Brother Lucian wrote:I hold on that the mauled, but still functioning Fists Exemplars will get very firmly told to retake the livery of their parent legion, and letting Slaughter be their new chapter master. Its also likely related to this event that the fists lost some organs, like the betchers gland and sus-an membrane.


My response;

LotN wrote:If that is what is going to happen, then it redeems the moment for me. The fact that the real Imperial Fists died millennia before 40k would be a hell of a twist, and it would pose a real question to players and fans of the Chapter. Does knowing that your favourite Chapter isn't actually the real Chapter that was made after the Heresy change your feelings towards it, or are the Imperial Fists of 40k the real Fists no matter their origin?



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Re: Predator,Prey

Postby Fenris » Sun Jan 10, 2016 10:09 pm

That was my option one above,i thought i made it clear :D
Thrusting his thunder hammer into the sky, he shouted—so that all could hear "Primarch.Progenitor, to your glory!"
"And to the glory of Him on Earth!" his brothers bellowed in response
-
A knight is sworn to valor. His heart knows only virtue. His blade defends the helpless. His word speaks only truth. His wrath undoes the wicked
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Re: Predator,Prey

Postby Fenris » Sun Jan 10, 2016 10:58 pm

And now someone else fished a most important piece of the puzzle out of somewhere unexpected

Spoiler: As said on another forum,the main character we follow during the Fists Exemplar chapters is named Maximus Thane

Way,way back in time,in the pages of Space Marine,Ian Watson has the 3 brothers of Necromunda see some of the names of the chapter masters of the past,inscribed on Dorn's hands



One of those names?

Maximus Thane

Yeah,it might be just a nod....But it falls in so perfectly to not be more than that :D

Thrusting his thunder hammer into the sky, he shouted—so that all could hear "Primarch.Progenitor, to your glory!"
"And to the glory of Him on Earth!" his brothers bellowed in response
-
A knight is sworn to valor. His heart knows only virtue. His blade defends the helpless. His word speaks only truth. His wrath undoes the wicked
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Re: Predator,Prey

Postby Major Rawne » Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:11 pm

I'll post more tonight once I can get at my highlighted notes, but there is one particular observation I have in relation to the fall of the Fists. And it's that it's virtually not mentioned at all that a Space Marine chapter has been wiped out.

A Space Marine chapter is wiped out and no one is talking about it. Well the AdMech are as they butchered 3 of them :lol:
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Re: Predator,Prey

Postby Fenris » Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:53 pm

Because no one knows for sure

The AdMec is the only faction that can actually confirm it because they are the only one that can survey Ardamantua.Everyone else (confirmed) information stops with the data drop right after the ork moon warping in orbit
Thrusting his thunder hammer into the sky, he shouted—so that all could hear "Primarch.Progenitor, to your glory!"
"And to the glory of Him on Earth!" his brothers bellowed in response
-
A knight is sworn to valor. His heart knows only virtue. His blade defends the helpless. His word speaks only truth. His wrath undoes the wicked
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Re: Predator,Prey

Postby Major Rawne » Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:32 pm

Fenris wrote:Because no one knows for sure

The AdMec is the only faction that can actually confirm it because they are the only one that can survey Ardamantua.Everyone else (confirmed) information stops with the data drop right after the ork moon warping in orbit


It depends on how you define "know for sure", but the information didn't stop right after the moon shows up.
I am Slaughter spoilers:

Spoiler: I would personally say that the words of Lord Commander Militant Heth in his final communique before he gets blown to bits would be enough of a confirmation for the high lords. As his words said, "The Imperial Fists are gone. They've been wiped out. The entire damned Chapter."

And there are three people plus whatever staff are with them that have heard the full story as sent back to Tera.



As I said it was an observation, I don't think there's any negative to it not being talked about. There is after all more than enough going on.


Anyway onto my thoughts:

Vangorich again was brilliant fun to follow, and you really get a sense that he isn't a man to cross. I thought it was brilliant when the Mesring fails to complete his mission as intended and is given just enough antidote to not kill him, but make sure that he damn well knows Vangorich is not happy. There's a good couple of story lines that seem to have been introduced with the Assassin's that I'm looking forward to playing out across the series.

Next you have the couple of Mechanicus plot lines that really go to show how much like the cold, logical machine they aspire to be. There's one side which is tasked to simply observe the Ork invasion of twin hive worlds. And that's exactly what they do. Cold.

The second Mechanicus line follows those tasked with gathering information directly from Ardamantua, and as Fenris has already mentioned they discover and subsequently butcher three of the last four Imperial Fists. But the particularly interesting thing for me was that they are so focused on getting any information they can for the Fabricator General, that they choose to operate on the Space Marines seemingly knowing they they don't really have a clue what they are doing but that a successor chapter would have the specialist knowledge.

In mentioning the Fabricator General I come back a little to what's picked up in Vangorich's story line and that is that Mars knows about the Ork threat, and have done for some time. They are also to a certain extent aligned with what the Inquisition has been doing in regards to this threat.

Whilst all the above scheming and plotting and secrecy is going on we actually have some fighting of Orks. Woohoo! The first one revolves around the Fists Exemplar as their world is invaded and they have to defend their cool crashed star fort from the invading Orks. Most of it is pretty much standard Space Marine action, with them knee deep in the sweat, blood and toil of war. And as is alluded to in previous posts the Fists Exemplar could very well have a significant role to play by the end of this series. There's one line about breaking something old to create something new, and that the Fists Exemplar know this better than any son of Dorn that to me says they are important to what happens in the future.

The second plot revolves around the planet of Undine, and follows the character of Lux Allegra as she goes from saving the Governor to taking part in a covert last ditch mission to wipe the Orks from the face of the planet. Not only did Rob create a magnificent world that has Submarine and Pirate action, but also quite the heartbreaking tale. After the Black Templar chapter is left on a cliff hanger I really did agonise over where they were going to eventually show up. And as we find out at the end they go fetch their Brothers for a meeting, and leave Undine to be wiped out. Gits.

To wrap up a little one of things that I thought Rob did really was the little sprinkles he added of the wider universe and some of what is happening elsewhere. It very much linked into whole conversation he had at Convention Secundus about adding in these little details and descriptions that as a reader you read and want to know more about. Very well done.

It really was an excellent read and actually I think that it's a positive that the two books in the series have so far been of a shorter length, like what BL used to do years ago. I can't wait till next month for Gav's entry into the series.
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