Sentinels of Terra supplement

[revelation]

Ah ok. I was just curious.

I don't play the game either, though I used to many years ago. I just buy the codicies and stuff for the fluff and art too.

[Liliedhe]

So far, I didn't buy Codices. Just the Digital stuff, like the Warlords Series and a couple of the INdex Astartes bits.

But I need to get this, because the Fists are in sore need of awesome and usually an army gets that when they get 'a codex'.

[Athelassan]

This is the Spoiler Zone, chaps, and there's a nice big spoiler warning in the title too. You really don't need the spoiler tags, unless it's spoilers for something other than Sentinels of Terra (and if they're detailed spoilers, they're probably better off somewhere else anyway).

[schaferwhat‽]

This is the Spoiler Zone, chaps, and there's a nice big spoiler warning in the title too. You really don't need the spoiler tags, unless it's spoilers for something other than Sentinels of Terra (and if they're detailed spoilers, they're probably better off somewhere else anyway).

I think this was split from another thread Ath.

[Liliedhe]

Yes. I took it from the "They are killing Imperial Fists" thread when the discussion got too spoiler-heavy.

[Words_of_Truth]

So Pugh is dead?, he didn't even get eaten he just got ripped to shreds by genestealers and it was all planned by the Iron Warriors?

*thump thump*

Hear that?

*thump thump*

It's a punching bag.

I'm thinking of washing my hands of defending the Imperial Fists, I don't collect them but they are/were my favourite legion but I'm finding it harder and harder to like them any more.

[Bellarius]

Okay, i've gone through this again and retract any positive statements I may have made about this codex. It is the worst one I have read since Iyanden on accounts of the blantent plagarism alone without even starting on the actual problems. Phalanx, Endeavor of Will, Sons of Dorn, even the Iron Cage incident have their events copied and pasted into these pages with the former three being actively retconned from existance.

Here's an actual criticism of the book though - On the opening, introductory page, the writer had obviously gotten the Imperial Fists confused with the Black Templars. They are described as a force for who "the Great Crusade never ended" and that "Where other forces of the Imperium fight and die in order to preserve Mankind’s dwindling holdings, the sons of Dorn blaze a trail of reconquest through the galaxy." Just about every single following event and mission shows them on crusades, assaulting worlds and doing little to nothing with siege warfare.

And yes, for those already guessing it turns out that this fluff was indeed done by Ward despite efforts to disguise this fact by making sure the names of no author involved was listed in the book.

[Lord of the Night]

WTF!! Pugh is dead?!

So yeah that means that anything involving him needs to be retconned to have happened prior to 970.M41. Not horrible but any other Chapter Master and this would have been a colossal screw up, at least Pugh never did anything important and his few appearances in the books never actually stated what year it is. I don't like it at all but it could be worse.

But Bellarius is right, very little siege warfare is mentioned here and this smacks of Matt Ward. I like that Lysander is considered too stubborn and that it's bitten him on the ass before, and I really like that Shon'tu continues to keep the burning hatred of Imperial Fist and Iron Warrior alive. Truthfully that theme had been forgotten recently outside the Heresy and it's nice to see that it's being brought back, these two should be at each other's throats a lot.

The Phalanx situation now joins Ka'Bandha and the Levithan tendril invading Baal, the Bloodborn in Ultramar, the Dragon Warriors at Nocturne, the Dark Angels and the Fallen's private war starting to spill out of control, Medusa being invaded by the Despoiler's armies and Huron Blackheart at Chogoris; all continue the theme that the 1st Founding Chapters are facing their darkest hours since the Horus Heresy. For that reason I do like it, and pretty much all the battles involving Shon'tu because they seem interesting, but more siege warfare is needed to bring the Fists back to the immovable force that they are.

So this Codex has pros and cons. The cons are glaring however and it's just another sign that Matt Ward needs to go. I really don't get why they keep him around.


Edit: Simply must go into detail on this particular part that I dislike,

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Crusade ... nJpahDYeQo

Fists vs Dark Eldar. Cool idea, and at the end the Archon says "Let me go and i'll never come back, I swear!" ... and they do it. What. The. Hell??? Who wrote that, because it's sheer idiocy to think that the Imperial Fists would believe an alien, or even listen to it's filthy words rather than just shoot it in the head and call it a day. So they let it go and of course he comes back and now they have a new recruiting world. No, I get that some could see logic in that but to me that just looks like cruelty to the people of that planet and the Fists being willing to give the enemy an inch of ground, metaphorically.


LotN

[Fenris]

Fists vs Dark Eldar. Cool idea, and at the end the Archon says "Let me go and i'll never come back, I swear!" ... and they do it. What. The. Hell??? Who wrote that, because it's sheer idiocy to think that the Imperial Fists would believe an alien, or even listen to it's filthy words rather than just shoot it in the head and call it a day. So they let it go and of course he comes back and now they have a new recruiting world. No, I get that some could see logic in that but to me that just looks like cruelty to the people of that planet and the Fists being willing to give the enemy an inch of ground, metaphorically.


LotN

Well,you can see it another way.First,i believe is clear that the Fists never believed the archon's words but...

...there is actually no real way to stop dark eldars from raiding the planet (the idea of destroying the cabal is already kind of impossible when you aren't even sure everyone is there...And even then,nothing stops another cabal taking the tradition over),more so when the larger imperium is uninterested in the defense

This way he bought time to fortify the planet and,by using the fact that's a ritual,so set into a precise time frame,make sure to be there to defend it every time

Not so stupid.Unusual maybe,but not stupid.

And more so,not that cruel to the people of the planet,when you make sure to have them defended when it matters most

Phalanx, Endeavor of Will, Sons of Dorn, even the Iron Cage incident have their events copied and pasted into these pages with the former three being actively retconned from existance.

Actually,there is room to fit at least Phalanx in the timeline without huge problems,unless i'm forgetting something,since there is a time window of a few years with both Lysander returned and Pugh alive

EoW has already been kind of retconned in the space marine codex but it can still fit in (as far as i remember,there is no mention of Pugh and having Shon'tu still alive fits with the ending of the story here)

The only one of the three that ends in a canon-conflct is Sons of Dorn because the Nimbosa crusade start 23 years after the death of Pugh,so he's unavaiable to "demote" Taelos to the 10th
but then again,it's Sons of Dorn....

(Yeah,you also have to make minor changes here and there,like the Fists' champion in Legion of the Damned being Pugh's champion but those aren't really that important)




That aside,i don't see the idea of Fists as crusaders as bad,i think quite the opposite.
Sure,we all know that's the idea of Black templar warfare but what stops Fists from having the same modus operandi?I mean,it's exactly what the legion was doing already during the Scouring

Also,as far as i remember,crimson fists' background stated that they were a crusading chapter too,up to the time when the high lords awarded them Rynn's world as a prize so..Once again,it makes sense

[Lord of the Night]

Well,you can see it another way.First,i believe is clear that the Fists never believed the archon's words but...

...there is actually no real way to stop dark eldars from raiding the planet (the idea of destroying the cabal is already kind of impossible when you aren't even sure everyone is there...And even then,nothing stops another cabal taking the tradition over),more so when the larger imperium is uninterested in the defense

This way he bought time to fortify the planet and,by using the fact that's a ritual,so set into a precise time frame,make sure to be there to defend it every time

Not so stupid.Unusual maybe,but not stupid.

And more so,not that cruel to the people of the planet,when you make sure to have them defended when it matters most.

If their goal was to let Kyrhac go in order to provoke future attacks that could be repelled then the info should state that was their goal. Also I find it hard to believe that Kyrhac would ever be a threat again, he was captured by mon-keigh. He would be extremely lucky to simply be killed when he returns to Commorragh for such a miserable failing. But he remains Archon?? It would take a mighty explanation to make that acceptable.

The only one of the three that ends in a canon-conflct is Sons of Dorn because the Nimbosa crusade start 23 years after the death of Pugh, so he's unavaiable to "demote" Taelos to the 10th, but then again,it's Sons of Dorn....

Nobody cares about Sons of Dorn.

That aside, I don't see the idea of Fists as crusaders as bad,i think quite the opposite. Sure, we all know thats the idea of Black Templars warfare but what stops Fists from having the same modus operandi? I mean, it's exactly what the legion was doing already during the Scouring.

It's not the crusader mentality I have a problem with. It's that crusades are the only thing that SoT adds to the lore, the Fists are the siege experts of the Space Marines so they should be doing a lot of them. Let the Templars do the crusading, after ten thousand years of experience their better at it after all. More siege examples are needed for the Fists, after all if this were a Raven Guard supplement would you want to see little emphasis on stealth and lots of ShootyDeathKill warfare?? No, you wouldn't. Same for the Fists, we want to see them in sieges both defending and attacking.


LotN

[Fenris]

If their goal was to let Kyrhac go in order to provoke future attacks that could be repelled then the info should state that was their goal.

Not to provoke them.But if you know new attacks are unavoidable,keeping them "stable" in a known pattern (from the way that part is told,the pattern was there) and prepare for them might be the better choice
That's the idea i got from the way that part is reported

Also I find it hard to believe that Kyrhac would ever be a threat again, he was captured by mon-keigh. He would be extremely lucky to simply be killed when he returns to Commorragh for such a miserable failing. But he remains Archon?? It would take a mighty explanation to make that acceptable.

Well,might take one or it might not.He's still an Archon,so not the dumber-side of the eldars walking the streets of Commoragh.Not that unthinkable he could have ways to keep things from falling apart for him (archons are usually crazy prepared anyway)

Nobody cares about Sons of Dorn.

Pretty much

That aside, I don't see the idea of Fists as crusaders as bad,i think quite the opposite. Sure, we all know thats the idea of Black Templars warfare but what stops Fists from having the same modus operandi? I mean, it's exactly what the legion was doing already during the Scouring.

It's not the crusader mentality I have a problem with. It's that crusades are the only thing that SoT adds to the lore, the Fists are the siege experts of the Space Marines so they should be doing a lot of them. Let the Templars do the crusading, after ten thousand years of experience their better at it after all. More siege examples are needed for the Fists, after all if this were a Raven Guard supplement would you want to see little emphasis on stealth and lots of ShootyDeathKill warfare?? No, you wouldn't. Same for the Fists, we want to see them in sieges both defending and attacking.

On one side i agree that seeing more siege warfare would have been nice

But on the other hand...We already know that's what the fists do.We already have every single scrap of background about them saying that they ae the best at it.
These supplements are supposed to be expansions on the already existing background,so i honestly can't say i'm disappointed we missed sieges in exchange for a new idea

[Bellarius]

Actually,there is room to fit at least Phalanx in the timeline without huge problems,unless i'm forgetting something,since there is a time window of a few years with both Lysander returned and Pugh alive.

You mean besides the fact that book's entire plot is supplanted and replaced by a dumber more plot hole ridden version with Shon'tu in place of Daenyathos. Don't you dare try to excuse the actions of a hack like Ward openly pillaging entire plotlines from other works and trying to pass them off as his own.

I've checked the dates on the Soul Drinkers books and compared them. More or less the exact date where Shon'tu pulls Grand Theft Phalanx is when the final book of that series is supposed to take place. Furthermore, that book also had the ship as being mobile. Located beyond Terra and actually required being able to move for his plan to work, not being the barely operational junkheap which is more a space station Ward has retconned it into being.

EoW has already been kind of retconned in the space marine codex but it can still fit in (as far as i remember,there is no mention of Pugh and having Shon'tu still alive fits with the ending of the story here)

You mean besides the wildly different characterisations of those involved. With Shon'tu not being a gibbering space marine equivilent of the Joker and Lysander not being such as raging sociopath to feel no remorse about putting his personal goals ahead of the lives of those under his command.

The only one of the three that ends in a canon-conflct is Sons of Dorn because the Nimbosa crusade start 23 years after the death of Pugh,so he's unavaiable to "demote" Taelos to the 10th
but then again,it's Sons of Dorn....

Which has been not only retconned, but like Phalanx has its plot looted for this book. The whole arc Taelos goes through is the exact damn thing which happens to Lysander, only that somehow that book managed to actually tell it better. Give actual signs of the character growth Taelos underwent, whereas Sentinels of Terra barely shows any changes in Lysander to any degree.

That aside,i don't see the idea of Fists as crusaders as bad,i think quite the opposite.
Sure,we all know that's the idea of Black templar warfare but what stops Fists from having the same modus operandi?I mean,it's exactly what the legion was doing already during the Scouring

Oh for Christ's sake! Are you hell bent upon defending every single last monumental screw-up, act of plagarism and crime Ward commits? Look at the damn way they are described in the introduction! look at the battles which take place!

The supplement barely even tries to show their abilities as siege experts and the few times they do are in the timeline, usually covered in brief if at all.
The entire damn intorduction tries to present the Imperial Fists as till being on the Great Crusade, never stopping and actually specifies that they don't fight in defense of the Imperium, just storm and retake other worlds:
"Where other forces of the Imperium fight and die in order to preserve Mankind’s dwindling holdings, the sons of Dorn blaze a trail of reconquest through the galaxy, bringing back into the fold worlds separated by Warp storms or xenos expansion."

They've been completely re-written in many parts as the Black Templars!

On one side i agree that seeing more siege warfare would have been nice

But on the other hand...We already know that's what the fists do.We already have every single scrap of background about them saying that they ae the best at it.
These supplements are supposed to be expansions on the already existing background,so i honestly can't say i'm disappointed we missed sieges in exchange for a new idea

So what, actually showing what they're good at is wrong? I'll just repeat one part of my review:
"It's understandable that a writer might want to show an army doing beyond what they are best known for. It could give the book variety, allow for more varied scenarios and prevent it looking like a force is overly specialised in one aspect of war to the point of pigeonholing themselves. The problem is that you still have to actually remember to give them moments of conflict where their specialty shines through to make people remember "Oh yeah, there's a reason why they are known for being good at this!""

The codex barely showed them as having any degree of siege speciality at all, it barely showed them as being able to take down buildings and didn't indicate just why their reputation is so well deserved. Here was a chance to prove why they are good at sieges and expand the rules to reflect that with the additional space. Instead every, single, last part of this lore, largely retconning huge chunks of the old lore, presents them as an entirely different force! This isn't trying to show them in a different light, it's trying to show them as a completely different army entirely and wiping away the old vision!


This isn't mentioning the emphasis the fluff places on the exact number of Imperial Fists who die, going out of its way to describe their deaths, trying to claim they frequently favour "inferior" equipment over all else, and with the single worst fitting chapter flaw they could have been given.

[Fenris]

Oh for Christ's sake! Are you hell bent upon defending every single last monumental screw-up, act of plagarism and crime Ward commits?

First,you might want to take your tone down a tiny bit.

Second,as i already stated,if not here on warseer and somewhere else,the portal thing is ripped straight from Phalanx and it's pretty much clear

Everything else?i don't have huge problems with.Nothing is perfect but nothing is horrible.

Iyanden supplement background was horrible because it made no sense at all and made eldar into bumbling fools at every step.This one isnt,for me at least

Easy as that.

Located beyond Terra and actually required being able to move for his plan to work, not being the barely operational junkheap which is more a space station Ward has retconned it into being.

It's failing
Like,well,everything in the Imperium,you know.

The horror,the horror.

And stil,we are told AND shown that it's still the greatest ship the imperium has ever seen.I see it more as inspiring that degrading.

Again,my view on it,doesn't mean you have to share it.

[Bellarius]

Second,as i already stated,if not here on warseer and somewhere else,the portal thing is ripped straight from Phalanx and it's pretty much clear

Really? Your response seemed to be to try and claim it wasn't retconned and was still there, not that one had been wiped out so that an author could use it for himself.

Everything else?i don't have huge problems with.Nothing is perfect but nothing is horrible.

So you've no problem with any other massive flaw from canon to basic storytelling. There is nothing wrong what so ever?

Iyanden background was horrible,this one isnt.for me at least.

You mean besides the gaping plot holes, turning it into Beil-Tan 2.0, re-writing the encounter with the Tyranids to only have taken place thanks to sheer hubris and stupidity, not to mention turning Ynnead into a urban legend and Iyanna Arienal being turned into a mad cult leader. Or how about how it used more of C.S. Goto's ideas than those of any recent book or codex, and openly trying to retcon Path of the Eldar out of the canon.

It's failing
Like,well,everything in the Imperium,you know.

The horror,the horror.

And stil,we are told AND shown that it's still the greatest ship the imperium has ever seen.I see it more as inspiring that degrading.

Yeah, it's emphasised to be failing, emphasised to be barely operational and emphasised to be such a wreck it can barely make Warp jumps any more. The writing continually hammers this in at every damn point, and it shows the serious bias within this work.

Whereas the Ultramarines by this guy where constantly boasted about, specified to be so special and better than everyone else because they had an empire, with no flaws, the Imperial Fists Death Star is only written to be a failing junkheap they cannot keep well maintained. One which can easily be hijacked by an enemy with little effort and even the points where it is in battle to little to try and show its power.

[Lord of the Night]

I'm with Bellarius on this one. Ward has basically tried to re-write the Fists as the Black Templars, but we already have a Crusading chapter that never rests nor tires in it's duty to mankind and it's zeal to purge the alien. They are called the Black Templars, and they are 1,000,000x times better than this new crusading knights version of the Imperial Fists that Ward wants to hype.

The Battle for the Phalanx I did not mind at first but I see the parallels between it and Phalanx now and that is not ok. Ward has ripped off Counter's work and made a vastly underwhelming version of it when compared to the epic Soul Drinker conspiracy.

And no the Fists letting Kyrhac go just feels wrong. The Imperial Fists let an enemy live, there is no reason that should ever happen.


All we can do is write off the Imperial Fists as ruined and hope even harder that GW comes to their senses, fires Ward and brings in someone competent to replace him.


LotN

[Fenris]

I'm with Bellarius on this one. Ward has basically tried to re-write the Fists as the Black Templars, but we already have a Crusading chapter that never rests nor tires in it's duty to mankind and it's zeal to purge the alien. They are called the Black Templars, and they are 1,000,000x times better than this new crusading knights version of the Imperial Fists that Ward wants to hype.

Also,as far as i remember,crimson fists' background stated that they were a crusading chapter too,up to the time when the high lords awarded them Rynn's world as a prize so..Once again,it makes sense

Again,if they want to push the idea that all the successor (first founding at least) share the crusading theme,i'm fine with it.

[Bellarius]

Also,as far as i remember,crimson fists' background stated that they were a crusading chapter too,up to the time when the high lords awarded them Rynn's world as a prize so..Once again,it makes sense

Wrong chapter. Those ones have "Crimson" before "Fist". They're not identical to their progenitors and followed a different path. The fact that one was once like the other does not excuse this massive act of character assassination on the part of the Fists.

[Fenris]

Also,as far as i remember,crimson fists' background stated that they were a crusading chapter too,up to the time when the high lords awarded them Rynn's world as a prize so..Once again,it makes sense

Wrong chapter. Those ones have "Crimson" before "Fist". They're not identical to their progenitors and followed a different path. The fact that one was once like the other does not excuse this massive act of character assassination on the part of the Fists.

That aside, I don't see the idea of Fists as crusaders as bad,i think quite the opposite. Sure, we all know thats the idea of Black Templars warfare but what stops Fists from having the same modus operandi? I mean, it's exactly what the legion was doing already during the Scouring.

See the above

We know by old background that Dorn led the legion in a single,huge crusade after the heresy (ending with the Iron cage,the codex and whatever else).
We also know,again,old background,that his way of doing things changed at that time.
So,since so many things were inherited by everyone when the legion shattered...I ask again,what exactly stops the fists from being crusaders,when we know the crimson (the "tame" ones of the legion) were crusaders for 9k years and the templars (the reckless ones) have made the eternal crusade their way of life forever?

Really? Your response seemed to be to try and claim it wasn't retconned and was still there, not that one had been wiped out so that an author could use it for himself.

My response said that there is room to say Phalanx is not retconned
I said nothing about the "portal-in-the-phalanx" being an original idea.
The two things are different.

Hell,a good writer could use them as part of a chain of events for a new story and it would make sense

[sam vimes]

Ward strikes again I see Bellarius what did he do to my huggy Dark Elves?

[Lord of the Night]

Ward strikes again I see Bellarius what did he do to my huggy Dark Elves?

He gave Malekith an ex-wife, and Morathi no longer wants her son. She wants Tyrion.


LotN