I think this was split from another thread Ath.Athelassan wrote:This is the Spoiler Zone, chaps, and there's a nice big spoiler warning in the title too. You really don't need the spoiler tags, unless it's spoilers for something other than Sentinels of Terra (and if they're detailed spoilers, they're probably better off somewhere else anyway).
Lord of the Night wrote:
Fists vs Dark Eldar. Cool idea, and at the end the Archon says "Let me go and i'll never come back, I swear!" ... and they do it. What. The. Hell??? Who wrote that, because it's sheer idiocy to think that the Imperial Fists would believe an alien, or even listen to it's filthy words rather than just shoot it in the head and call it a day. So they let it go and of course he comes back and now they have a new recruiting world. No, I get that some could see logic in that but to me that just looks like cruelty to the people of that planet and the Fists being willing to give the enemy an inch of ground, metaphorically.
LotN
Phalanx, Endeavor of Will, Sons of Dorn, even the Iron Cage incident have their events copied and pasted into these pages with the former three being actively retconned from existance.
Fenris wrote:Well,you can see it another way.First,i believe is clear that the Fists never believed the archon's words but...
...there is actually no real way to stop dark eldars from raiding the planet (the idea of destroying the cabal is already kind of impossible when you aren't even sure everyone is there...And even then,nothing stops another cabal taking the tradition over),more so when the larger imperium is uninterested in the defense
This way he bought time to fortify the planet and,by using the fact that's a ritual,so set into a precise time frame,make sure to be there to defend it every time
Not so stupid.Unusual maybe,but not stupid.
And more so,not that cruel to the people of the planet,when you make sure to have them defended when it matters most.
Fenris wrote:The only one of the three that ends in a canon-conflct is Sons of Dorn because the Nimbosa crusade start 23 years after the death of Pugh, so he's unavaiable to "demote" Taelos to the 10th, but then again,it's Sons of Dorn....
Fenris wrote:That aside, I don't see the idea of Fists as crusaders as bad,i think quite the opposite. Sure, we all know thats the idea of Black Templars warfare but what stops Fists from having the same modus operandi? I mean, it's exactly what the legion was doing already during the Scouring.
Lord of the Night wrote:If their goal was to let Kyrhac go in order to provoke future attacks that could be repelled then the info should state that was their goal.
Also I find it hard to believe that Kyrhac would ever be a threat again, he was captured by mon-keigh. He would be extremely lucky to simply be killed when he returns to Commorragh for such a miserable failing. But he remains Archon?? It would take a mighty explanation to make that acceptable.
Nobody cares about Sons of Dorn.
That aside, I don't see the idea of Fists as crusaders as bad,i think quite the opposite. Sure, we all know thats the idea of Black Templars warfare but what stops Fists from having the same modus operandi? I mean, it's exactly what the legion was doing already during the Scouring.
It's not the crusader mentality I have a problem with. It's that crusades are the only thing that SoT adds to the lore, the Fists are the siege experts of the Space Marines so they should be doing a lot of them. Let the Templars do the crusading, after ten thousand years of experience their better at it after all. More siege examples are needed for the Fists, after all if this were a Raven Guard supplement would you want to see little emphasis on stealth and lots of ShootyDeathKill warfare?? No, you wouldn't. Same for the Fists, we want to see them in sieges both defending and attacking.
Fenris wrote:Actually,there is room to fit at least Phalanx in the timeline without huge problems,unless i'm forgetting something,since there is a time window of a few years with both Lysander returned and Pugh alive.
EoW has already been kind of retconned in the space marine codex but it can still fit in (as far as i remember,there is no mention of Pugh and having Shon'tu still alive fits with the ending of the story here)
The only one of the three that ends in a canon-conflct is Sons of Dorn because the Nimbosa crusade start 23 years after the death of Pugh,so he's unavaiable to "demote" Taelos to the 10th
but then again,it's Sons of Dorn....
That aside,i don't see the idea of Fists as crusaders as bad,i think quite the opposite.
Sure,we all know that's the idea of Black templar warfare but what stops Fists from having the same modus operandi?I mean,it's exactly what the legion was doing already during the Scouring
Fenris wrote:On one side i agree that seeing more siege warfare would have been nice
But on the other hand...We already know that's what the fists do.We already have every single scrap of background about them saying that they ae the best at it.
These supplements are supposed to be expansions on the already existing background,so i honestly can't say i'm disappointed we missed sieges in exchange for a new idea
Oh for Christ's sake! Are you hell bent upon defending every single last monumental screw-up, act of plagarism and crime Ward commits?
Located beyond Terra and actually required being able to move for his plan to work, not being the barely operational junkheap which is more a space station Ward has retconned it into being.
Fenris wrote:Second,as i already stated,if not here on warseer and somewhere else,the portal thing is ripped straight from Phalanx and it's pretty much clear
Everything else?i don't have huge problems with.Nothing is perfect but nothing is horrible.
Iyanden background was horrible,this one isnt.for me at least.
Fenris wrote:It's failing
Like,well,everything in the Imperium,you know.
The horror,the horror.
And stil,we are told AND shown that it's still the greatest ship the imperium has ever seen.I see it more as inspiring that degrading.
Lord of the Night wrote:I'm with Bellarius on this one. Ward has basically tried to re-write the Fists as the Black Templars, but we already have a Crusading chapter that never rests nor tires in it's duty to mankind and it's zeal to purge the alien. They are called the Black Templars, and they are 1,000,000x times better than this new crusading knights version of the Imperial Fists that Ward wants to hype.
Also,as far as i remember,crimson fists' background stated that they were a crusading chapter too,up to the time when the high lords awarded them Rynn's world as a prize so..Once again,it makes sense
Fenris wrote:Also,as far as i remember,crimson fists' background stated that they were a crusading chapter too,up to the time when the high lords awarded them Rynn's world as a prize so..Once again,it makes sense
Bellarius wrote:Fenris wrote:Also,as far as i remember,crimson fists' background stated that they were a crusading chapter too,up to the time when the high lords awarded them Rynn's world as a prize so..Once again,it makes sense
Wrong chapter. Those ones have "Crimson" before "Fist". They're not identical to their progenitors and followed a different path. The fact that one was once like the other does not excuse this massive act of character assassination on the part of the Fists.
That aside, I don't see the idea of Fists as crusaders as bad,i think quite the opposite. Sure, we all know thats the idea of Black Templars warfare but what stops Fists from having the same modus operandi? I mean, it's exactly what the legion was doing already during the Scouring.
Really? Your response seemed to be to try and claim it wasn't retconned and was still there, not that one had been wiped out so that an author could use it for himself.
sam vimes wrote:Ward strikes again I seeBellarius what did he do to my huggy Dark Elves?
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