Crimson fist

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Re: Crimson fist

Postby Lord_Crull » Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:48 pm

shadowhawk2008 wrote:What is hard to understand (not really) is that people are failing to appreciate the differences between the days of the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy and M41.


..yes and I'm not sure how that's relevant to my point at all.
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby sam vimes » Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:06 pm

Lord_Crull wrote:
shadowhawk2008 wrote:What is hard to understand (not really) is that people are failing to appreciate the differences between the days of the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy and M41.


..yes and I'm not sure how that's relevant to my point at all.

What is your point can you tell us in brief?
"Huron-Fal’s systems were on the verge of shutdown ... ‘This death,’ rasped the voder, ‘this death is ours. We choose it. We deny you your victory.’

"Abandon your fear. Look forward. Move forward and never stop. You'll age if you pull back. You'll die if you hesitate."

"From iron cometh strength. From strength cometh will. From will cometh faith. From faith cometh honour. From honour cometh iron." "And may it ever be so"
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby Lord_Crull » Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:39 pm

sam vimes wrote:
Lord_Crull wrote:
shadowhawk2008 wrote:What is hard to understand (not really) is that people are failing to appreciate the differences between the days of the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy and M41.


..yes and I'm not sure how that's relevant to my point at all.

What is your point can you tell us in brief?


I already have in brief, twice, I have no idea what is so hard to understand or be confused about it.
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby sam vimes » Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:09 am

Lord_Crull wrote:
..yes and I'm not sure how that's relevant to my point at all.

What is your point can you tell us in brief?[/quote]

I already have in brief, twice, I have no idea what is so hard to understand or be confused about it.[/quote]
*palms face* if you've put it twice and yes I've read them and best I can get it is you seem to think, Sigsmund should have been a psyker hating zealot from the get go ( a modern M41 Templar) and followed orders blindly like a good little soilder, but instead you dont like the fact he broke all the rules for the right reasons, and given were we are book wise he has to depend on his own strength and forge his own path with nothing more than his own faith in Keelers words and advice and his sword arm, not Dorn telling him to became a Black Templar.
"Huron-Fal’s systems were on the verge of shutdown ... ‘This death,’ rasped the voder, ‘this death is ours. We choose it. We deny you your victory.’

"Abandon your fear. Look forward. Move forward and never stop. You'll age if you pull back. You'll die if you hesitate."

"From iron cometh strength. From strength cometh will. From will cometh faith. From faith cometh honour. From honour cometh iron." "And may it ever be so"
[CENTER]Image[/CENTER]
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby Lord_Crull » Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:36 am

sam vimes wrote:*palms face* if you've put it twice and yes I've read them and best I can get it is you seem to think, Sigsmund should have been a psyker hating zealot from the get go ( a modern M41 Templar) and followed orders blindly like a good little soilder, but instead you dont like the fact he broke all the rules for the right reasons, and given were we are book wise he has to depend on his own strength and forge his own path with nothing more than his own faith in Keelers words and advice and his sword arm, not Dorn telling him to became a Black Templar.


No, I did't say that at all, so I'm quite curious as to why you think that.

What I did say is that Templars fans would't like the idea that the First Templar basically took advice from a xenos witch and broke his oaths. It does'nt matter really what modern Templars think of him, it's how the fans think of him and it's delicously hypocritical that Sigsmund basically violated what the Templars hold so dear.
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby sam vimes » Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:13 am

I'm thinking that as I'm really tired as I've been up since 8 worked all day on a 2-10 and I'm still up at 1:54 am, and your posts aren't that clear, and thank you for giving me your view point in a clear and easy to understand manner.

And speaking of Templar fans heres my housemate Vinny's response to what Sigsmund is like:
At this point he's a FIST not a Templar so he'll be pretty level headed willing to take advice from others and form his own opinion, it takes 10k years for the Templar's to became what they are along with a few bad experience's with psyker's make's them what they are.
"Huron-Fal’s systems were on the verge of shutdown ... ‘This death,’ rasped the voder, ‘this death is ours. We choose it. We deny you your victory.’

"Abandon your fear. Look forward. Move forward and never stop. You'll age if you pull back. You'll die if you hesitate."

"From iron cometh strength. From strength cometh will. From will cometh faith. From faith cometh honour. From honour cometh iron." "And may it ever be so"
[CENTER]Image[/CENTER]
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby Lord_Crull » Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:32 am

sam vimes wrote:And speaking of Templar fans heres my housemate Vinny's response to what Sigsmund is like:
At this point he's a FIST not a Templar so he'll be pretty level headed willing to take advice from others and form his own opinion, it takes 10k years for the Templar's to became what they are along with a few bad experience's with psyker's make's them what they are.


Yes, yes, that's good, but I'm already seeing divisive opinons from many Templars fans, hence my point.
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby Xisor » Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:15 pm

Zealotry can be hypocritical? It's upsetting to find out that the thing you rave and rant about is not, strictly, really what you believed it was? Faith is questioned? There's distinction between what you believe about a thing and the truth about a thing and that, perhaps, it's silly to get upset by that? That religiosity and unquestioning veneration is perhaps not a great idea?

Well, those irate Templar players out there on the internet must be feeling serious metaphysical angst. Their poetic justice detectors must have exploded!
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby Rob P » Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:58 pm

That explains why Black Templars are happier to work with xenos than Sisters of Battle. :lol:
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby sam vimes » Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:56 pm

Xisor wrote:Zealotry can be hypocritical? It's upsetting to find out that the thing you rave and rant about is not, strictly, really what you believed it was? Faith is questioned? There's distinction between what you believe about a thing and the truth about a thing and that, perhaps, it's silly to get upset by that? That religiosity and unquestioning veneration is perhaps not a great idea?

Well, those irate Templar players out there on the internet must be feeling serious metaphysical angst. Their poetic justice detectors must have exploded!


You clicked reveal didn't you?
"Huron-Fal’s systems were on the verge of shutdown ... ‘This death,’ rasped the voder, ‘this death is ours. We choose it. We deny you your victory.’

"Abandon your fear. Look forward. Move forward and never stop. You'll age if you pull back. You'll die if you hesitate."

"From iron cometh strength. From strength cometh will. From will cometh faith. From faith cometh honour. From honour cometh iron." "And may it ever be so"
[CENTER]Image[/CENTER]
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby Lord_Crull » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:14 pm

Xisor wrote:Zealotry can be hypocritical? It's upsetting to find out that the thing you rave and rant about is not, strictly, really what you believed it was? Faith is questioned? There's distinction between what you believe about a thing and the truth about a thing and that, perhaps, it's silly to get upset by that? That religiosity and unquestioning veneration is perhaps not a great idea?

Well, those irate Templar players out there on the internet must be feeling serious metaphysical angst. Their poetic justice detectors must have exploded!


Oh, certainly I take a degree of satisfaction in the Templars being hypocritical. But I do sympathize with them. It is fully within the right of a fan to be upset about his faction being hypocrtical or wrong. I mean, you do realize that fans can be very intense? Right? I've seen people express death threats to Mat Ward for example.

Of course it's somewhat silly, but it's hardly unexpected for dedicated fans to be like that.
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby sam vimes » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:25 pm

Of course it's somewhat silly, but it's hardly unexpected for dedicated fans to be like that.


Just no not saying a word
"Huron-Fal’s systems were on the verge of shutdown ... ‘This death,’ rasped the voder, ‘this death is ours. We choose it. We deny you your victory.’

"Abandon your fear. Look forward. Move forward and never stop. You'll age if you pull back. You'll die if you hesitate."

"From iron cometh strength. From strength cometh will. From will cometh faith. From faith cometh honour. From honour cometh iron." "And may it ever be so"
[CENTER]Image[/CENTER]
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby Lord_Crull » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:50 pm

sam vimes wrote:
Of course it's somewhat silly, but it's hardly unexpected for dedicated fans to be like that.


Just no not saying a word


It very much is true. Have you every visited any of the major fan forums like Spacebattles, Bolter and Chainsword or DakkaDakka? You should see just how many people get upset over Mat Ward.
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby Athelassan » Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:44 am

Lord_Crull wrote: You should see just how many people get upset over Mat Ward.

That's not all that surprising really:

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Re: Crimson fist

Postby flick » Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:51 pm

I think the Dorn/Sigusmund tension will resolve it's self, not too worry.

As for Perturabo, he reminds me of an Autistic demi-god who acts like a teenager... with an IQ of 4000. His own warriors seem scared of him as well.

As for the strange ending, two thought occurred to me 1) They'd ended up thousands of years in the future 2) They'd entered the Solar system and it would tie in with this somehow? http://www.blacklibrary.com/horus-heres ... truth.html
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby flick » Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:52 pm

Looking at it, my second theory doesn't mention I.F.'s ..so scratch that.
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby LordLucan » Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:45 pm

I really liked this.

I liked that the Imperial fists lost, but it was because they were too loyal to Dorn's orders. I also liked taht Perturabo was obviously annoyed at the end, that by his calculatons, if they had stayed, they would have beat him. A simple line officer would have beaten a primarch's fleet.

Was this the longest naval battle in the HH series so far? It seemed more extensive and detailed than any other. Plus, we actually get some sens eof 3-dimensional warfare; spherical formations and conical attacking formations and attacks coming in from every vector. Nice.

Sigismund was portrayed well. It hints at the greater religiosity of the Black templars, as their foudner was more willing to follow his faith in keeler rather than his secular oath to Dorn. The conflict and sorrow of Sigismund's actions, and Dorn's rather cruel judgement of sigismund makes me like him all the more. He's no longer Dorn's son or his champion... which kind of paves the way for his role as the Emperor's champion in my mind. I reckon he'll be meeting with Keeler again before the siege. I also like the insinuation that he has fought in the world eater gladiator pits. I always like when the champions of the various chapters start idly sizing each other up for hypothetical duels in these novels.
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby You Naughty Monsters » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:02 am

I enjoyed this too.

The one thing that jars me abit (and is true of many/most void battles protrayed) is that they abandon any sense of space and scale. For example, in CF we are told that the psychic servitor detectors would take decades to find scattered about the system, however when the first Iron Warriors ship enters the system it is already within weapons range and destroys an IF ship almost before it can react!

Surely void warfare would involve trying to detect eachother first in the vastness of space, two fleets sizing eachother up on either side of the system trying to maneuvre into a tactically advantageous poistion. Almost like a game of chess before the first shot is fired. As with naval warfare in Nelsons time, after they are commited and the first shots are fired it all descends into a chaotic skirmish.

I thoroughly enjoyed the void war in CF, but generally less thought seems to go into space battles in most 40k/30k books. They tend to be used as backdrops.
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby LordLucan » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:18 am

A spaceship would be very easy to detect in space. They chuck out tons of heat and signals. But yeah, perhaps some fot he ships engaged at rather near proximity, but sometimes the needs of the plot outweigh the needs of realism.
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby You Naughty Monsters » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:32 am

LordLucan wrote:A spaceship would be very easy to detect in space. They chuck out tons of heat and signals. But yeah, perhaps some fot he ships engaged at rather near proximity, but sometimes the needs of the plot outweigh the needs of realism.


I get what you're saying, but having two fleets on the brink of total war is a great way to ramp up the tension and nerve fraying prior to such a huge battle. In that sense I think it would add to the plot in most cases.
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