Crimson fist

For talking openly about the spoilers from Black Library fiction.

Re: Crimson fist

Postby J.Blaze » Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:19 am

Angry Ron is one for sure. Fulgrim-Daemon, yeah he's daemon but at the same time not alot of folks knew about it. The Lion has killed one of his own warriors. That's just off top of my head.
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby David Earle » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:03 am

All of the Traitor Primarchs, of course, although it's more like ordering their deaths. In person, I'm pretty sure Kurze offed a few as well.

Spoiler: Fear to Tread revealed that Sanguinius has mercy-killed at least one of his sons.



And it's possible Russ has had to off a few Wulfen over time. But I can't think of a Primarch who offed one of his sons so callously as Perturabo.
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby Words_of_Truth » Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:38 am

I think there's a definite difference between a mercy killing and killing out of spite/anger/cruelty.
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby Rob P » Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:55 am

Spoiler: Fear to Tread revealed that Sanguinius has mercy-killed at least one of his sons.



It's sad that I can't remember well enough already, but was it a mercy killing or cover-up/shame.
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby Words_of_Truth » Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:59 am

It was a mercy killing
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby flick » Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:14 pm

I know the traitor primarchs killed off the Loyalists in their legions, I was thinking before the HH and specifically the loyalist primarchs during the HH.
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby Phoebus » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:09 am

Regarding Perturabo not being bitter at the beginning of the Crusade... It's worth remembering that the Index Astartes article for the Iron Warriors painted Perturabo as cold and distrustful of his "adopted father figure" on Olympia. I'm not sure he was ever "Mr. Personality", and I doubt he needed much nudging to get to the point where comments by Rogal Dorn regarding his Legion's expertise would send him into shouting rages.

Regarding Pollux's decision to run... Tactically and strategically speaking, even if every single one of his warriors was slain and every single one of his ships was destroyed, the rate at which they were killing Iron Warriors would have justified the decision to stay. Even if their victory had been utterly pyrrhic, with neither side walking away with anything capable of fighting ever again, it would have been worth it. That wasn't the point of "Crimson Fist", though. The story was about the value of loyalty and obedience. It was all about juxtaposing Pollux with Sigismund.

I'm not arguing whether the example used (abandoning a fight you were somehow winning, sacrificing the majority of your force, missing a chance to cripple a Legion that was absolutely going to be central to besieging Terra) was necessarily the best one. But I also think it's worth considering that John's point wasn't to say that Pollux was right to do what he did, either. Perhaps the larger lesson that will arise from this is that blind obedience isn't the way to go; that Sigismund was absolutely right to trust in Keeler's premonitions, and that Pollux's loyalty might have done irreperable harm to the Imperium's chances.

Either way, I thought this was a very good story with engaging characters and a fun plot. The somewhat controversial ending will or will not prove its worth as time passes and other stories are told, I imagine. :)
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby Longstrider » Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:22 am

Phoebus wrote:Regarding Pollux's decision to run... Tactically and strategically speaking, even if every single one of his warriors was slain and every single one of his ships was destroyed, the rate at which they were killing Iron Warriors would have justified the decision to stay. Even if their victory had been utterly pyrrhic, with neither side walking away with anything capable of fighting ever again, it would have been worth it. That wasn't the point of "Crimson Fist", though. The story was about the value of loyalty and obedience. It was all about juxtaposing Pollux with Sigismund.


Bingo. I think a lot of this stuff about whether or not Sigismund or Dorn here is the baddy, or whether Pollux should have run or not, is missing the point. I think the one criticism I would have for the story is that John French should have maybe come up with a better situation for Pollux to be winning in which it would have been plausible for him to cut and run.

But that's a concern about coming up with a setting - and I hope when he gets to do a full book he'll give that some thought - the plot and the character concern is indeed that very dichotomy between Sigismund's (dis)obedience and Pollux's obedience.

I'm also not sure what the reaction of the internet has to do with whether or not the Sigismund/Dorn interaction was well done or not. Dorn's right - Sigismund did exactly what Horus (and others) did. But Sigismund (if Keeler is correct) is ALSO right.

Now, what interests me most is looking at how the Black Templars and the Crimson Fists go on to be in the next 10,000 years. Rynn's World paints the CFs as relatively flexible marines, who still at some level might have human responses to things. The Black Templars are (even by Imperial standards!) intolerant, rigid fanatics. And that's what's interesting about it.

The Templars in 40k could be the way they are either because Sigismund chose to embrace that part of himself that believed Keeler, OR because he rejected that part so utterly that the alternative was to be... just the thing he thought would happen if he did follow her.
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby Xisor » Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:51 am

Indeed, Longstrider - the contrast even in ADB's Fists/Templars in 40k is quite something. Same, I think, is seen in "Phalanx" and "Legion of the Damned". Amongst Dorn's legacy, The Crimson Fists seem to be amongst the most well adapted, the most cosmopolitan. (Inverted for the main CF in "Phalanx"!)

The total character evolution of Dorn and his legion is, perhaps, the most ripe single seam in 40k.
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby Longstrider » Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:32 am

Well, I think what's makes it so good, is that the Legion changes. I've read (and come to agree) with your critique of Nick Kyme's Salamanders as kind of off because the Salamanders are just the same over 10,000 years, and they're almost ALL fire this and flame that and self-sacrifice the other thing - Tsu'gan is interesting precisely because he's SUCH a weirdo in the Legion. It's good to see in the Fists that, across thousands of people (however strongly they're conditioned and indoctrinated and physically similar) there are some quite different personalities, and that these become different over time. But I do think Nick's books are good otherwise, and I expect once we get a heresy novel proper from him we'll get more.

That said, it's not entirely unique to the Fists. I think part of is that we see so many Fists as side characters in various stories (or at least, I have the perception that we do) whereas, say, the Death Guard or White Scars just show up in the far distance and say very simple things.

Increasingly though, I'm starting to think of the Alpha Legion as suffering from the same problem as the Salamanders. Except where the Salamanders are 100% fire, the Alpha Legion are 100% scheming ninja.
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby Athelassan » Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:37 pm

I just read this in Shadows of Treachery. Difficult to know what I made of it. On the one hand, I thought it was well-written and the Fists were done well; the business with Sigismund in particular.

On the other hand, it did feel very much that the Fists suffered from defeat by fiat and impossibly rigid stupidity. They've been sitting in the system doing almost literally nothing for three months, then a traitor fleet pitches up, a fleet which includes their deadliest and most resolute foe. Against the apparent odds, they engage, and are winning.

Then, out of the blue, a message arrives, completely devoid of any context or knowledge of their situation, saying "get back here". So they just leave, right in the middle of battle, losing the vast majority of their force in the process. Given how long they've sat around for, and the vagaries of warp travel, it stretches credibility a little to suggest that they couldn't afford to stick around for just a few more hours to win that battle, kill Perturabo, and return with an intact force that might actually achieve something instead of sacrificing pretty much their entire force to obey the strict letter of an order delivered in ignorance.

If they had stuck around and finished the battle, winning, as seemed likely, and then returned, then if Dorn didn't accept their reasons for doing so he doesn't deserve command. Apart from anything else, eliminating Perturabo and a large IW army would remove by far the biggest threat to the Imperial Palace fortifications.

The manner in which they planned to take out Perty also seemed a little odd. Surely they must know by now that sending ordinary Marines to kill a Primarch doesn't work? (Or maybe not - more Lost Legions?) Why not just blast his spaceship out of the sky?

So, overall, meh.

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Re: Crimson fist

Postby Xisor » Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:51 pm

Athelassan wrote:<snip>


I know it's merely parroting what's said by French and his characters in story, but...

That's warp travel. Three months becalmed, there's no 'real' reason to assume the order's given in ignorance. (Indeed, given what Dorn's mandating, I'm not sure ignorance is appropriate. Overreaction and lack of perspective, perhaps, more than ignorance, but that might be me being pedantic.)

That is to say: any delay might well see the trap closed on them. It's difficult to see how to illustrate it, and in that regard I'd certainly concede it as a significant flaw in the story (if it can't be resolved or acknowledged), but the simple case is that any delay might've led to them being stranded and only emerging from their curious little pocket of the universe, Sahaal-like, X-thousand/million/billion years in the future or past.

To that extent, it's still fiat, but it's an inherent consequence of the conceit of 40k's warp travel.

(And in that regard I'm much happier with The Crimson Fist than I am with, say, Fulgrim wherein the arrival at Isstvan V of the 'loyalists' is so conspicuous and convenient that three Primarchs, their First Captains, their Navigators, their inactive Librarians, their advisors, theirs shipmasters and anyone else with vague familiarity of how all this jazz works... see fit to comment or ruminate on it not one bit.)
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby Fenris » Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:49 am

A thing just occurred to me.Very very minor but still

They were fighting what,in the end,amounted to a space SIEGE.That might add a bit to the rage of Perturabo :D
Thrusting his thunder hammer into the sky, he shouted—so that all could hear "Primarch.Progenitor, to your glory!"
"And to the glory of Him on Earth!" his brothers bellowed in response
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Re: Crimson fist

Postby Therion » Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:24 am

It was quite interesting.

Perturabo used to be one of my favourite primarchs. Not after this story. Killing the messenger and intimidating his own men with his instability make him a rather offputting character.

The things that I liked:
-John French can write.
-The depiction of the horror of war.
-The whole obedience/initiative stuff.


Things that I disliked:
-The author seems to be unaware of scale of void war.
-The author forgets that marine blood is clotting very quickly.
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