Pariah (Spoilers)

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Re: Pariah (Spoilers)

Postby sam vimes » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:08 pm

Duke_Leto wrote:


:shock: Wow you REALLY HATE Pariah! Looks like your review is earning a bit of flak over on Warseer too!

Interested to know what you were expecting from this book and what would have redeemed it (if the story had stayed the same) in your eyes?

He's entitled to his view as wrong as others may think it is (I most certainly do) we all have that one thing that never lives up to our expectations mine was the The first heretic SH's is Pariah.
"Huron-Fal’s systems were on the verge of shutdown ... ‘This death,’ rasped the voder, ‘this death is ours. We choose it. We deny you your victory.’

"Abandon your fear. Look forward. Move forward and never stop. You'll age if you pull back. You'll die if you hesitate."

"From iron cometh strength. From strength cometh will. From will cometh faith. From faith cometh honour. From honour cometh iron." "And may it ever be so"
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Re: Pariah (Spoilers)

Postby shadowhawk2008 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:14 pm

Should I be surprised WarSeer is reacting badly to it? Nah. It was expected. A certain... gentleman has already made his views quite clear :-)

Give me a few days and I might post here about what it is I really wanted out of the book. Will take some time to properly consider the question :-)
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Re: Pariah (Spoilers)

Postby Duke_Leto » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:12 pm

sam vimes wrote:He's entitled to his view


Absolutely 100% agree with that.

Not so much on here as generally we are all very well behaved but on other fora people can get downright nasty and insulting if you do not share their view. It seems that people forget that these are "discussion" forum/fora and that opposing views stimulate "discussion" and therein we develop an understanding of others views that may, at times, alter or perhaps solidify our own perceptions on a subject.

I would hate to live in a world where all of us agreed on everything - it would be pretty boring!
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Re: Pariah (Spoilers)

Postby schaferwhat‽ » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:24 pm

I for one think that Shadowhawk needs to earn his view through ritualised combat rather than just granting him entitlements like that wily nilly.

Pariah is next on the list after I've finished Neferata (which I'm enjoying) so I'm staying clear of spoilers.
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Re: Pariah (Spoilers)

Postby shadowhawk2008 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:26 pm

schaferwhat‽ wrote:I for one think that Shadowhawk needs to earn his view through ritualised combat rather than just granting him entitlements like that wily nilly.

Pariah is next on the list after I've finished Neferata (which I'm enjoying) so I'm staying clear of spoilers.


Jeez, way to pick the one thing that I am terrible at!
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Re: Pariah (Spoilers)

Postby sam vimes » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:45 pm

Duke_Leto wrote:
sam vimes wrote:He's entitled to his view


Absolutely 100% agree with that.

Not so much on here as generally we are all very well behaved but on other fora people can get downright nasty and insulting if you do not share their view. It seems that people forget that these are "discussion" forum/fora and that opposing views stimulate "discussion" and therein we develop an understanding of others views that may, at times, alter or perhaps solidify our own perceptions on a subject.

I would hate to live in a world where all of us agreed on everything - it would be pretty boring!

Oh believe me I know how nasty people can be a while ago I posted my views on how much I wasn't looking forward to ADB getting back into the heresy, in the FB HH group to say I was savaged would be an understatement lol although when I called him out on how underwhelming I found TFH his defense was rather weak "best reviewed novel so far" so what? if I mindlessly followed reviews I'd have no personal taste, whilst SH is a little harsh in his view the review made me want to read Pariah even more, so's I can form my own opinion using SH's as a reference to my own enjoyment of the continuing adventures of Iron hoof, chair, Iron and co.
"Huron-Fal’s systems were on the verge of shutdown ... ‘This death,’ rasped the voder, ‘this death is ours. We choose it. We deny you your victory.’

"Abandon your fear. Look forward. Move forward and never stop. You'll age if you pull back. You'll die if you hesitate."

"From iron cometh strength. From strength cometh will. From will cometh faith. From faith cometh honour. From honour cometh iron." "And may it ever be so"
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Re: Pariah (Spoilers)

Postby revelation » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:10 pm

SH is absolutely entitled to his opinion.

I was curious about this Warseer hate you mentioned so I went to the website to read the reactions your review got and I was pretty surprised at the level of venom. Though I would have to venture a guess that one of the reasons you got that reaction was because your review did feel very partial and opinion driven. Of course reviews are largely opinion, but your review/s / opinions might be easier to swallow if you made an effort to understand and address why your opinion is so divergent from many others. Especially in the case of iconic and much admired authors such as Dan and ADB. Having said that, I give you a lot of credit for reviewing books and having an opinion at all that's open to public scrutiny. It takes a good amount of guts to do what you do. I definitely wouldn't be able to stomach it.

As far as the novel goes I think Duke and LL covered all the bases. I'm solidly in the, "one of BL's best of 2012" camp.

I also have to echo the sentiment that Dan is extremely adept at world building. I honestly don't think any writer in the BL stable does it better. It's part of what makes his novels so convincing.

As to SH's opinion that the novel doesn't feel like a 40k novel till the late middle portion of the book...I'd have to disagree there. I think there are plenty of small flourishes and details that make it uniquely 40k, its just not emphasized or sign posted. I think this subtlety in fact adds to the sense of disorientation and mystery that the novel required in order for the reader to be convinced along with Bequin that things were not as they seem. I'd go even further to say that the fact the novel doesn't immediately scream 40k in huge bold lettering and yet still firmly keeps us in world, speaks to the quality of Dan's writing. Dan's books are always stretching and redefining the boundaries of 40k and to me personally, it's bold and almost always impressive. The fact that Dan can do this and yet still remain immediately accessible and entertaining says even more about him as a writer imo.

I really can't wait till the next book in the trilogy.

edit: hmmm, I was re-reading your review SH and your take on Bequin's knowledge of French and the tutors at the Maze Undue knowing several ancient Terran languages not being believable...couldn't one assume that these are not the same languages left intact, but rather just mere filtered echoes of the original languages? 40k is littered with references and links to Earth/Terra's past, linguistically and culturally. Is it not logical to think that certain secret societies such as the Cognitae or Imperial academic institutions have access to or knowledge of ancient Terran culture, art, and language, even if only vaguely so?

edit: Re-reading your review, I think you do a pretty thorough job of explaining your dislikes of the novel and I have to agree that Dan's endings often times feel very rushed. I've mentioned this before here, specifically in reference to the ending in Legion. It's one of the very very few things that jars me about Dan's writing.
Last edited by revelation on Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pariah (Spoilers)

Postby shadowhawk2008 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:37 pm

sam vimes wrote:Oh believe me I know how nasty people can be a while ago I posted my views on how much I wasn't looking forward to ADB getting back into the heresy, in the FB HH group to say I was savaged would be an understatement lol although when I called him out on how underwhelming I found TFH his defense was rather weak "best reviewed novel so far" so what? if I mindlessly followed reviews I'd have no personal taste, whilst SH is a little harsh in his view the review made me want to read Pariah even more, so's I can form my own opinion using SH's as a reference to my own enjoyment of the continuing adventures of Iron hoof, chair, Iron and co.


Is that the group where they are talking trash about GW/BL almost every day and are always negative about everything? I left that one. Couldn't take the negativity and constant snide remarks and elitist attitude any more.

And dude, that's probably the best compliment I've had on the review so far. I consider my job well-done if you are still motivated to read the book yourself and form your own opinions on it.

revelation wrote:SH is absolutely entitled to his opinion.

I was curious about this Warseer hate you mentioned so I went to the website to read the reactions your review got and I was pretty surprised at the level of venom. Though I would have to venture a guess that one of the reasons you got that reaction was because your review did feel very partial and opinion driven. Of course reviews are largely opinion, but your review/s / opinions might be easier to swallow if you made an effort to understand and address why your opinion is so divergent from many others. Especially in the case of iconic and much admired authors such as Dan and ADB. Having said that, I give you a lot of credit for reviewing books and having an opinion at all that's open to public scrutiny. It takes a good amount of guts to do what you do. I definitely wouldn't be able to stomach it.

As far as the novel goes I think Duke and LL covered all the bases. I'm solidly in the, "one of BL's best of 2012" camp.

I also have to echo the sentiment that Dan is extremely adept at world building. I honestly don't think any writer in the BL stable does it better. It's part of what makes his novels so convincing.

As to SH's opinion that the novel doesn't feel like a 40k novel till the late middle portion of the book...I'd have to disagree there. I think there are plenty of small flourishes and details that make it uniquely 40k, its just not emphasized or sign posted. I think this subtlety in fact adds to the sense of disorientation and mystery that the novel required in order for the reader to be convinced along with Bequin that things were not as they seem. I'd go even further to say that the fact the novel doesn't immediately scream 40k in huge bold lettering and yet still firmly keeps us in world, speaks to the quality of Dan's writing. Dan's books are always stretching and redefining the boundaries of 40k and to me personally, it's bold and almost always impressive. The fact that Dan can do this and yet still remain immediately accessible and entertaining says even more about him as a writer imo.

I really can't wait till the next book in the trilogy.

edit: hmmm, I was re-reading your review SH and your take on Bequin's knowledge of French and the tutors at the Maze Undue knowing several ancient Terran languages not being believable...couldn't one assume that these are not the same languages left intact, but rather just mere filtered echoes of the original languages. 40k is littered with references and links to Earth/Terra's past, linguistically and culturally. Is it not logical to think that certain secret societies such as the Cognitae or Imperial academic institutions have access to or knowledge of ancient Terran culture, art, and language, even if only vaguely so?


As I said on WarSeer, I'm always up for reading opinions that diverge from mine, and am perfectly happy being in the minority where my views are concerned, if that's what it comes down to. I just take issue when people act with outright hostility.

Also, it's not like I don't like Dan's work. I reviewed both KNF and TaT last year and I spoke very highly of both of those. For me, he is too inconsistent. Unlike Nathan Long or C. L. Werner or Christian Dunn or Sarah Cawkwell, or, outside of BL, Matt Forbeck, or Anne Lyle or Paul S. Kemp or Adam Christopher or Chris F. Holm.
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Re: Pariah (Spoilers)

Postby revelation » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:43 pm

Added one more edit to my post SH about your review. I thought my characterization of your review as feeling "partial" and "opinion" driven was a little unfair. You backed up your criticisms just fine. It was just towards the end that the review felt a bit driven by emotion as opposed to impartiality... and yes I realize reviews are in a sense Op Ed pieces, but I personally feel that an air of impartiality adds to rather than detracts from a review.
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Re: Pariah (Spoilers)

Postby sam vimes » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:52 pm

Is that the group where they are talking trash about GW/BL almost every day and are always negative about everything? I left that one. Couldn't take the negativity and constant snide remarks and elitist attitude any more.

And dude, that's probably the best compliment I've had on the review so far. I consider my job well-done if you are still motivated to read the book yourself and form your own opinions on it.


I think so all I remember is a bunch of posts that seemed more along the lines "hey look what I did congratulate me on it" And yeah the attitude I know there aren't many rules to FB but Dear God-Emperor they were incredibly snobby, elitist and generally unpleasant the episode with ADB made me not want to go there anymore better to come here lol it's safer.

And your very welcome SH it takes a lot to put me off wanting to try/read/play something reviews notwithstanding more often than not I'll disregard common opinion and form my own exceptions to this are products that everyone and there dog loves *waves at the modern warfare brand, and TFH* when something is apparently universally loved it makes me suspicious and not inclined to be a sheep.

Oh and keep up the reviews I haven't been to warseer but sod'em how many of them would be willing to put there view online for close scrutiny? not many I bet.
"Huron-Fal’s systems were on the verge of shutdown ... ‘This death,’ rasped the voder, ‘this death is ours. We choose it. We deny you your victory.’

"Abandon your fear. Look forward. Move forward and never stop. You'll age if you pull back. You'll die if you hesitate."

"From iron cometh strength. From strength cometh will. From will cometh faith. From faith cometh honour. From honour cometh iron." "And may it ever be so"
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Re: Pariah (Spoilers)

Postby revelation » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:59 am

shadowhawk2008 wrote:
Also, it's not like I don't like Dan's work. I reviewed both KNF and TaT last year and I spoke very highly of both of those. For me, he is too inconsistent. Unlike Nathan Long or C. L. Werner or Christian Dunn or Sarah Cawkwell, or, outside of BL, Matt Forbeck, or Anne Lyle or Paul S. Kemp or Adam Christopher or Chris F. Holm.


Keep in mind that Dan is extremely prolific. I'm not sure any of the writers you listed as being more consistent than Dan have written nearly as many novels, short stories, comics, etc.. Not that I agree with you at all in feeling that he's inconsistent. IMO, he's extremely consistent and given his level of output, I'd say it's pretty commendable that he's written so many top notch works.
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Re: Pariah (Spoilers)

Postby shadowhawk2008 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:08 pm

OT so I'll PM you :D
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Re: Pariah (Spoilers)

Postby Duke_Leto » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:23 pm

[This is a cut n paste of a post of mine on Warseer]

I too think Pariah is nicely 40k from the get go. However, I can kind of see where SH is coming from. It could possibly be feeling a tad less 40k then most (although one could level that equally at the Eisenhorn books if not so much the Ravenor books).

However, I would argue that this may indeed be somewhat deliberate on the part of Abnett. The story (without going into spoilers) is meant to throw you off kilter from the start (assuming you have already read Eisenhorn and Ravenor). There is plenty in the first 1/3 to 1/2 where a reader familiar with the earlier books will go "wait a minute that can't be right". Also having the setting be a bit, well less 40k (whatever that really means) is another way to do that. It is a trick regularly employed by writers and film directors to make things just feel a bit wrong and confusing.

Added to that there is a justification for why the world feels the way it does. It is a backwater planet in the Scarus sector. A wee bit off the well trodden path (check out the map in the Ravenor books - Sancour is not on a major trade/warp route). Again in the context of the story and the maze undue, that makes sense. This is also backed up by the 40k lore where the million or so worlds are often very different (some even virtually medieval).

Actually as I type this (and now edit) I realise that the initial feeling of being a medieval world (to me at least) is actually what makes it 40k. There are not too many Sci Fi settings (to my knowledge) that have such a fantasy/medieval feel woven throughout as 40k.
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Re: Pariah (Spoilers)

Postby Vivia » Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:30 pm

Really? To me it doesn't feel fantasy or medieval, never got that feeling from the stories. It can't be compared to Altdorf or any of those cities and the layers of filth they have there.
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Re: Pariah (Spoilers)

Postby Duke_Leto » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:10 pm

Hmmm if memory serves me right I do not recall a single reference to vehicles in the early part of the book (in fact apart from Ravenor's attack none others at all I think). The buildings are all stone and decayed. Certainly doesn't feel "futuristic" - which is fine by me and works as 40k.
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Re: Pariah (Spoilers)

Postby Phoebus » Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:37 am

The Watch used weapons that were definitely not medieval. Terms like "carriage" were used, but they are stated as having engines rather than horses as a means of locomotion. Then there's the fact that the Warblind were a product of that planet going back centuries, and were augmented/cybernetic warriors. Finally, when Beta meets Eisenhorn, the area of the city he lives in is specifically described as suffering from damage caused by industry. :)
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Re: Pariah (Spoilers)

Postby revelation » Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:07 am

I don't want to speak for Duke_Leto, but I I'm not sure he meant literally a medieval world, but rather that the world felt less like a typical "modern" Imperial world, ie a hive or forge world, and more a hybrid. Possibly a world possessing some Imperial technology, but being aesthetically "medieval" or back water. That definitely is 40kish and uniquely so. That was my take on his post anyhow.
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Re: Pariah (Spoilers)

Postby Duke_Leto » Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:16 am

@revelation - yes quite right. I wasn't being literal in saying medieval. Clearly any world in the 40k universe cannot be totally medieval - though the fluff does support worlds being almost medieval with perhaps the planetary governor and his closest aids only truly understanding what the Imperium is.

I meant it more in a hybrid way. Perhaps not quite medieval and more steam punk? Either way, it is not a "modern" 40k world and this makes the start of the story is strange and intriguing (to me).
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Re: Pariah (Spoilers)

Postby LordLucan » Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:19 pm

Abnett can't win. In his early Eisenhorn stuff, he got criticised for having too much hi-tech stuff in his stories (in particular, the over abundance of anti-grav vehicles), now his settings are too medieval! ;)

But more seriously, I agree with Leto with regards the intriguing setting, and its nice mix of technlogies.

Incidentally, would a 40K novel feel 40K if it was set on one of the many feral, feudal or blackpowder worlds of the Imperium? I tihnk they would, but sometimes I feel readers have a rather narrow view of what 40K novels should be.

I did like especially that the church had far grander and more sophisticated technology on display compared to the grubby medieval paupers in the artist studio, and the low-tech, low-key Maze Undue.
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Re: Pariah (Spoilers)

Postby Lord of the Night » Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:08 pm

LordLucan wrote:Incidentally, would a 40K novel feel 40K if it was set on one of the many feral, feudal or blackpowder worlds of the Imperium? I tihnk they would, but sometimes I feel readers have a rather narrow view of what 40K novels should be.

Same here. ADB said something about the Heresy series being so small in scale because the readers say they don't want the extra stories and just want to get to Terra. Sad really, so many awesome stories that could be told and just because some people want to get to Terra as fast as possible we are being denied them.

40k fans should accept that 40k is a much wider and more fascinating universe than just demanding more stories about Space Marines killing each other. More Inquisition, more domestic 40k, more looks into the subtler side of the Imperium are what I want to see.


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