Xisor wrote:sigillite wrote:Xisor wrote:
In The First Heretic, what we see is Lorgar portrayed on a journey. He, contrasted well with Vulkan in Promethean Sun, is unable to reconcile what he knows for a fact was the Emperor's [stated and repeated] design/intent and what he both thinks, feels and [to his view] knows is what he should be doing. Vulkan felt he was to be a leader, a protector, a visionary and a charismatic philosopher-king...but he knew the Emperor needed a general, so he had to become the warrior the Emperor intended, to forsake his own conviction for the Emperor. Lorgar couldn't do that.
I disagree on this. Lorgar got to the point where he just refused to do it any longer.
Unsurprisingly, I disagree with your disagreement.![]()
Vulkan never had a tantrum. Nor did he beat up Malcador. To put it another way (and according to the artist who drew the two 'religious' pictures of the Salamanders in Horus Heresy: Collected visions, although that was generally about the Salamanders, not strictly about Vulkan himself): they never wavered. Even after everything, they still 'had faith' in the Emperor. (According to the artist, this was in contrast to the Dark Angels, who almost/sorta turned.)
Lorgar, on the other hand, was dragging his heels all along. Lorgar's legion was busy building utopias, the Emperor reiterated he wanted worlds conquered. (Note: it was the other primarchs who censured Night Haunter, not the Emperor. An important point? Probably not, but it should be.) Lorgar beats up Malcador.
Vivia wrote:What I disliked was the victimisation of the WB legion that the TFH painted, it was poorly done.
I don't see it in the slightest. The victimisation of the legion, that is. It's poorly done because they're victims to nothing more (and nothing less) than themselves: Erebus and Kor Phaeron gank Lorgar by insisting on religifying everything, on Lorgar having to have more than everyone else. They're pushy parents.
But, with that in mind, Lorgar has no bloody business in allowing himself to be dictated as he is. He's weak, he's...rubbish. (It's a coming of age story.)
Aaron's already discussed this: Lorgar isn't supposed to be likeable, or particularly competent (for a primarch). He's a fantastic idealistic world builder...but no-one needs that. That can wait 'til after the enemy aren't at the gates. More to the point, Aaron's noted explicitly that when we next see Lorgar, chronologically (i.e. prob. not in Aurelian), he'll be 'becoming the primarch he was born to be', someone who's not being pushed about, the Primarch who'll be doing the pushing.
But, as you indicate Vivia (though don't say so!), it's Lorgar who acts like the victim, even though it's plain to everyone he's not.
Note how he only takes ~300 folks with him on his 'Soul Search' to the edge of reality? Those 300 are his 'Mournival', to an extent. He gets rid of Erebus and Kor Phaeron for that. They go off and they lead the other Word Bearers (essentially knowing that/relying on Lorgar'll be more 'on their wavelength' when he gets back). As in they start the purges of loyalist Word Bearers and lead the legion without Lorgar's daft victim complex (which even he surely recognises is a Bad Thing, hence only taking a handful of what amount to redshirts with him).
And, of course, note that in Lorgar's 'absence' (lets call it his holiday to Magalu--- The Eye of Terror) the Word Bearers go from being the slowest most agonisingly crawling legion to 'absolutely fine, nothing to see here', better perhaps (I don't quite remember if that's explicit or made-up-by-my-imagination).
I concur fairly on Guilliman being 'normal'. As with Horus in Horus Rising, Ferrus Manus in Fulgrim and Mortarion in Eisenstein, they seem...well adjusted. Fulgrim's a bit of an odd-ball and Magnus is... Magnus. Similarly, the odd camaraderie seen at Nikaea in Prospero Burns is again eerily normal.
And yet, the more screen-time they get (e.g. Mortarion in A Thousand Sons and both himself and Ferrus Manus in Promethean Sun), they do seem a lot less normal. It's played with nicely (if not very well) regarding the Lion. He's brilliant, but his lack of 'getting normal things' is massively undermining him.
Alternatively you could be Night Haunter and actually just be thoroughly loopy.
I should have clarified. I disagreed with the last sentence of your post when you said Lorgar couldn't do that. Lorgar did do that (act as a general) until Monarchia then he refused to do it any longer.