The First Heretic (long text)

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Re: The First Heretic (long text)

Postby shadowhawk2008 » Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:56 pm

sam vimes wrote:for me the biggest let down was how much of a wuss Lorgar was, I thought your the primarch thats the most religously minded due to your upbringing you fought in the big E knows how many religous wars and you dont want to be a general?! Excuse me while I scream you are a primarch lorgar, a son of the emperor created to help build and maintain a galactic empire warfare is kinda of a given so grow a pair and get on with it! Another thing that did my tree in was the constant mention of the asartes acidic spit I mean really did it have to crop up as much as it did?

I know its a really cool thing and all but mentioned to much for my liking, and to flag something that viva mentioned asarates as victims is stonking great as long as its done well, uriel ventris anyone? He got put through the ringer from warriors of ultramar onwards till the chapters due and you know I sympathised with him every step of the way, lorgars lads and argel tarl in particular I couldn't give two frags about as they came across to me as whiny and emo.

Now the legion as whole bored me as after reynolds had shown us the word bearers after the hh, if he had been given the WB in HH I think we'd be a lot happier with them.


Again, that is entirely the point! No matter what plans the Emperor had of his sons, ultimately it came down to the hard fact that he wasn't involved in their upbringing at all! To understand the difference, imagine 20 primarchs raised on Terra, trained by the Emperor and his mortal generals, growing up together as the brothers they were meant to be. Commanding the wars on Terra and then leading their legions from the get go.

One also often wonders why the Emperor didn't really tell his sons about the true nature of the Warp. Perhaps because they all grew up far from him and away from his proper tutelage and in their adolescent condition, it was perhaps a major risk? /shrug

Anyways. Yes. Even Vulkan didn't really want to be a general but he accepted his father's vision for the Imperium and did as he was told. And I must have somehow missed all the references to the Betcher's Gland. I can hardly remember any such instances.

As for Argel Tal, he never seemed whiny or emo to me. Perhaps a little far too trusting of his Primarch and his legion, but never self-destructive. I think he just missed that proper relationship that Loken had with Kyril or Ignace or even Euphrati.
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Re: The First Heretic (long text)

Postby Vivia » Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:25 pm

True, very true. Lorgar kept calling the Emperor father but there wasn't a real connection between them and then there was Kor Phaeron, the Cthulhian priest, wanting a Terminator armour. My impression was that both him and Erebus gained much more if Lorgar was kept away from the Emperor. There was a creepy undertone with KP and Lorgar's relationship.

Perhaps it was a hint that the primarch project was an major failure?

The gland reared its head in the battle for that city in the beginning, with the robots (sorry, I don't have the book with me XD), Argel Tal or someone spat on the ground all casual-like. It was one of those parts I have to re-check I had read correctly. LOL
Last edited by Vivia on Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The First Heretic (long text)

Postby Rob P » Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:34 pm

There are a lot of points here and I read the book so long ago that I can't comment properly, but I got the impression that even by the end of the book the Lorgar's legion and even other legions were more content and happy with the path that they were taking than Lorgar was.

When you consider what Erebus had been up to prior to Istvaan V it is amazing and kinda interesting that Lorgar does seem to be wholly on board by the point of the dropsite massacre.

I feel that, at the point of TFH, Lorgar is still developing towards the character he is in 40k.
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Re: The First Heretic (long text)

Postby sam vimes » Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:00 pm

the gland thing was something that kept coming up as a slight refrence to my mind, thiers a line about him tarl I think having to swallow his bile for some act and it not being entirely figurative and lots of other little things that came to mind, the upbringing thing I want to come back to as for me its a case of the emperor gave each primarch life and a purpose, now if you were to spend all the effort time and energy to make those 20 and a few go sry dad you've made me a demi god a warrior without mortal peer but sry I dont want to rebuild our race I want to read this book, I'd be pretty frakked off if I was the emperor and I feel he was to have the ultra smurfs do what they did to that planet, as at the end of the day the emperor didn't want to be a god in the traditional sense he just wanted I feel unite humanity to a large degree then push on with the true crusade of conqureing the entire galaxy via the human webway and other plans and Lorgar was just too selfish to see/want that and well he did keep trying to force god hood on the emperor.
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"From iron cometh strength. From strength cometh will. From will cometh faith. From faith cometh honour. From honour cometh iron." "And may it ever be so"
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Re: The First Heretic (long text)

Postby sigillite » Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:05 am

sam vimes wrote:for me the biggest let down was how much of a wuss Lorgar was, I thought your the primarch thats the most religously minded due to your upbringing you fought in the big E knows how many religous wars and you dont want to be a general?! Excuse me while I scream you are a primarch lorgar, a son of the emperor created to help build and maintain a galactic empire warfare is kinda of a given so grow a pair and get on with it! Another thing that did my tree in was the constant mention of the asartes acidic spit I mean really did it have to crop up as much as it did?

I know its a really cool thing and all but mentioned to much for my liking, and to flag something that viva mentioned asarates as victims is stonking great as long as its done well, uriel ventris anyone? He got put through the ringer from warriors of ultramar onwards till the chapters due and you know I sympathised with him every step of the way, lorgars lads and argel tarl in particular I couldn't give two frags about as they came across to me as whiny and emo.

Now the legion as whole bored me as after reynolds had shown us the word bearers after the hh, if he had been given the WB in HH I think we'd be a lot happier with them.




On the surface it seems that Lorgar was a wimp. But I think people like Lorgar are the most dangerous. Lorgar was a hot headed zealot and would have (and probably did) burned worlds for his beliefs. He had the wind taken out of his sails so to speak and quite frankly lost the fight he had in him after Monarchia. People like Lorgar need a cause or belief to fight for and when they have it they are the most ruthless people of them all.
He was consumed by his beliefs and when that was taken away it crushed him.
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Re: The First Heretic (long text)

Postby sam vimes » Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:26 am

uniting humanity and building an empire to rule the stars was his cause not religion not the emperor is a god so like it, and thats wrong as zealots when they lose that belief are useless by and large until they find something else to be zelous about and well we all know how that turned out dont we in lorgars case.
"Huron-Fal’s systems were on the verge of shutdown ... ‘This death,’ rasped the voder, ‘this death is ours. We choose it. We deny you your victory.’

"Abandon your fear. Look forward. Move forward and never stop. You'll age if you pull back. You'll die if you hesitate."

"From iron cometh strength. From strength cometh will. From will cometh faith. From faith cometh honour. From honour cometh iron." "And may it ever be so"
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Re: The First Heretic (long text)

Postby Flashgordon » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:10 am

We should not forget the short in Tales of heresy either. Lorgar seems to think that the Emperor is still a god or at least that his(Lorgars) fall was his plan. He says the emperor wanted this to happen:
"The Emperor, in his wisdom, has driven us to this point. This is His will. This is His mercy. The Blood of these innocents is on his hands."
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Re: The First Heretic (long text)

Postby sigillite » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:57 am

Flashgordon wrote:We should not forget the short in Tales of heresy either. Lorgar seems to think that the Emperor is still a god or at least that his(Lorgars) fall was his plan. He says the emperor wanted this to happen:
"The Emperor, in his wisdom, has driven us to this point. This is His will. This is His mercy. The Blood of these innocents is on his hands."




That was sarcasm. Lorgar was a wee bit angry with the Emperor.
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Re: The First Heretic (long text)

Postby Flashgordon » Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:04 am

I disagree. But if there is something that would point at that you may well enlighten me. ;)
I think personally that the Emperors motives could be that the Heresy should happen. I think it is just too implausible that the Emperor knows nothing of his creations.
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Re: The First Heretic (long text)

Postby sigillite » Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:17 am

Flashgordon wrote:I disagree. But if there is something that would point at that you may well enlighten me. ;)
I think personally that the Emperors motives could be that the Heresy should happen. I think it is just too implausible that the Emperor knows nothing of his creations.




You could argue that the Emp had a hidden agenda or that he wanted the HH to happen but that would be pure conjecture and established background on the Emperor suggests the opposite. In TFH Lorgar definitely does not think the Emp wants him doing what he's doing.


As for Scions of the Storm, it was very obvious Lorgar was angry with the Emperor.
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Re: The First Heretic (long text)

Postby shadowhawk2008 » Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:30 am

sam vimes wrote:the gland thing was something that kept coming up as a slight refrence to my mind, thiers a line about him tarl I think having to swallow his bile for some act and it not being entirely figurative and lots of other little things that came to mind, the upbringing thing I want to come back to as for me its a case of the emperor gave each primarch life and a purpose, now if you were to spend all the effort time and energy to make those 20 and a few go sry dad you've made me a demi god a warrior without mortal peer but sry I dont want to rebuild our race I want to read this book, I'd be pretty frakked off if I was the emperor and I feel he was to have the ultra smurfs do what they did to that planet, as at the end of the day the emperor didn't want to be a god in the traditional sense he just wanted I feel unite humanity to a large degree then push on with the true crusade of conqureing the entire galaxy via the human webway and other plans and Lorgar was just too selfish to see/want that and well he did keep trying to force god hood on the emperor.


But that is what Magnus did anyway. And we know from ATS that Magnus was eventually meant to sit on the Golden Throne and power whatever psychic force the Emperor projected from it, be it the Astronomican and/or stand watch over the Webway entrance or even something else.

All the Primarchs also believed in rebuilding the race, that has never been in question. But the way that was to happen, which is where Lorgar differed the most in from his brothers.

We know that the Emperor knew that there wasn't going to be a constant war like the Great Crusade once the Imperium was ready. That is why all those tax collectors and bureaucrats were slowly (the army commanders would say differently of course) replacing the War Council with the Council of Terra. That is why the Emperor left the Great Crusade proper (notwithstandin some other conjectural implications of the Ullanor Crusade). The Imperium's power is at its height, and I daresay the envisioning the Crusade itself as soon drawing to a close.

All the Primarchs had to have a purpose beyond just being Generals, just like with what we know of Magnus. I would say that the reason Curze and Angron's excesses were tolerated was precisely this. The Emperor had plans for them all after the Crusade involved and he wasn't going to go around telling his sons off for just being a little overzealous prosecuting the wars.
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Re: The First Heretic (long text)

Postby Flashgordon » Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:36 am

Well one of the reasons for his anger we already know. He at least seems to be using this as an argument to sway brother-captain Sor Talgron. The question is if he believes them himself?
He must know, with all his knowledge of the warp, that there is more to the Emperor than anyone else(maybe not Magnus).
His hatred for the Emperor seems a bit too childish right now.
But if "faith" have been introduced as a properties in his being(he is a being made from warp stuff after all) he needed something to worship.

I would argue that he knows, and is completely aware, that this action from the emperor drives him to find new gods against his will.
This could be the reason for his anger.
In first Heretic i kind of got the feeling that he resisted the temptations of chaos and failed because it was built in to his system to fall for it.

/oh end rant. (english is not my first language, sorry if my post have grammar-errors) Maybe i should wear a tinfoil hat too?
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Re: The First Heretic (long text)

Postby Xisor » Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:16 pm

Though clearly Lorgar's angry in Scions of the Storm, Lorgar in it is clearly exhibiting extreme cognitive dissonance in that story. His god's disagrees with him.

My trouble on this front was that in Scions of the Storm that dissonance isn't explored. In fact it's barely dealt with except to say that it's there and is the prime mover for the rest of the story.

In The First Heretic, what we see is Lorgar portrayed on a journey. He, contrasted well with Vulkan in Promethean Sun, is unable to reconcile what he knows for a fact was the Emperor's [stated and repeated] design/intent and what he both thinks, feels and [to his view] knows is what he should be doing. Vulkan felt he was to be a leader, a protector, a visionary and a charismatic philosopher-king...but he knew the Emperor needed a general, so he had to become the warrior the Emperor intended, to forsake his own conviction for the Emperor. Lorgar couldn't do that.

In effect, yes, Lorgar's a wimp. I don't want to be pleading askance from what A D-B actually intended, but it seems plain to me that Lorgar being a git, Guilliman being 'far too mature to have to deal with this nonsense from one of his own'...Lorgar's having a breakdown, of sorts. It read very much like After Desh'ea, and for me it is that similarity which makes the 'entire Legion as one' fall so compelling: both the World Eaters and Word Bearers have conviction and 'love' for their Primarch; it is not their place to go against their commanders, even if they openly disagree/know better. I found it wasn't dealt with so well in Fulgrim, but was contrasted well in Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons: Russ completely skews his Legion because of what he tells them is 'their purpose', he's brainwashed them into being almost totally at ease with killing other Marines whilst Magnus is almost disconnected from his Legion. Not completely, of course, but it's plain he's 'losing it', to an extent, hence why Ahriman is able to act as he does.

In that regard, and as I took it from reading the book, there's supposed to be a bit of a gulf between our expectations as readers and our ability to sympathise with the Word Bearers in The First Heretic: a very large portion of them are doing things they know to be 'Not a Good Idea'. As people who like to believe that we don't do things when we know they're a bad idea, it's difficult to make that leap to sympathise/empathise with the Word Bearers. Yet...we know fine well it happens all the time. Tons of people make bad moves for poor reasons, often in the knowledge that it's a bad idea, but with the vague hope/trust that somehow, in some inexplicable/unforeseen way, it'll work out.

It's a difficult story to write, but I don't think making the characters more easy to relate to would serve the book well: they're supposed to be making bad moves. I massively prefer A D-B's take on the Heresy-era Word Bearers to that seen in Reynold's stories or as they were portrayed by Counter in Battle for the Abyss. (Though it seemed like there were large 'intended points of interest' in BftA which were simply missing. I can't account for how it happened, but it seemed like Ben had a tremendous idea/vision for it, but managed to miss most of the things he was aiming for. It makes me sad as I like the 'outlines of the ideas' that are threaded through the book: the idea that the Ultramarines had to be as prone to faithfulness/guesswork as the Word Bearers for them to succeed, for instance.)
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Re: The First Heretic (long text)

Postby Flashgordon » Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:21 pm

Xisor wrote: *snip*

It's a difficult story to write, but I don't think making the characters more easy to relate to would serve the book well: they're supposed to be making bad moves. I massively prefer A D-B's take on the Heresy-era Word Bearers to that seen in Reynold's stories or as they were portrayed by Counter in Battle for the Abyss. (Though it seemed like there were large 'intended points of interest' in BftA which were simply missing. I can't account for how it happened, but it seemed like Ben had a tremendous idea/vision for it, but managed to miss most of the things he was aiming for. It makes me sad as I like the 'outlines of the ideas' that are threaded through the book: the idea that the Ultramarines had to be as prone to faithfulness/guesswork as the Word Bearers for them to succeed, for instance.)


I agree with what you have written above(and above this). But i would also like to point out that the Word Bearers tha BC and AR portray are not the same that ADB writes about, some time(and alot of time) has gone since their "fall" into chaos.
But yeah BftA is not very good, and it almost seems like a sequel, but not as bad as the internet wants it to be imo.
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Re: The First Heretic (long text)

Postby sigillite » Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:38 pm

Xisor wrote:
In The First Heretic, what we see is Lorgar portrayed on a journey. He, contrasted well with Vulkan in Promethean Sun, is unable to reconcile what he knows for a fact was the Emperor's [stated and repeated] design/intent and what he both thinks, feels and [to his view] knows is what he should be doing. Vulkan felt he was to be a leader, a protector, a visionary and a charismatic philosopher-king...but he knew the Emperor needed a general, so he had to become the warrior the Emperor intended, to forsake his own conviction for the Emperor. Lorgar couldn't do that.



I disagree on this. Lorgar got to the point where he just refused to do it any longer.
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Re: The First Heretic (long text)

Postby Flashgordon » Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:58 pm

sigillite wrote:
Xisor wrote:
In The First Heretic, what we see is Lorgar portrayed on a journey. He, contrasted well with Vulkan in Promethean Sun, is unable to reconcile what he knows for a fact was the Emperor's [stated and repeated] design/intent and what he both thinks, feels and [to his view] knows is what he should be doing. Vulkan felt he was to be a leader, a protector, a visionary and a charismatic philosopher-king...but he knew the Emperor needed a general, so he had to become the warrior the Emperor intended, to forsake his own conviction for the Emperor. Lorgar couldn't do that.



I disagree on this. Lorgar got to the point where he just refused to do it any longer.


Imo this is to easy of an explanation(albeit it could be true ill give you that). :) I think he did'nt want to stop worshipping the Emperor but, enter Khor Phareon, in the circumstances he found that there actually were gods that both wanted and demanded worship.
And as i believe it was in Lorgars being/nature that he "needed" a faith he was torn between these belief systems.

In the end he ended up worshipping real gods instead of a false one, maybe even against his own will since it seems to have been implanted in his very essence.

I see it a little bit as the Crazy Roman(cant remember his name) who ended up worshipping Jesus and Jehova
after a long treck in the desert after seeing them/him in a vision.
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Re: The First Heretic (long text)

Postby Vivia » Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:47 pm

Wow, exciting discussion going on here.

Xisor wrote:Yet...we know fine well it happens all the time. Tons of people make bad moves for poor reasons, often in the knowledge that it's a bad idea, but with the vague hope/trust that somehow, in some inexplicable/unforeseen way, it'll work out.

That's very true and no one said that the Astartes can't make errors of judgement.
The problem is that within the context of the story of TFH, there was hardly any depth to WB doing bad things. I never got the feeling it touched the Legion in general, you know a hundred of thousands Space Marines, we only got to see Argal Tal's POV and a bit of Xaphen.
What were the dreams of the WB? How did they suffer from all of the things Lorgar put them through?
What I disliked was the victimisation of the WB legion that the TFH painted, it was poorly done.

What makes Lorgar a whiner is the fact that he took the position of the victim in the relationship with his father. The Emperor, the perpetrator, punished him and he didn't want to take responsibility for what he had done and it made him bitter that he had to. Even Magnus couldn't listen to his whine, he teleported himself to safety. :)
From what I gathered Lorgar took the victim role with Kor Phaeron as well, he let himself be used, helpless to his influence.
That's why I think he doesn't deserve to be a Daemon Prince.
He wasn't going "I should turn to Chaos because it would be good for me" and admitting to his selfish desires, no, it was "people are mean, I want to turn to Chaos". You can't respect that. The CM get my respect because they are true to their egotist ways and their evil lifestyles (lol).

Like a spoiled child he was angry with his father for not letting him do his thing an yet he couldn't properly rebel against the Emperor. He was stuck, complaining to his poor Legion that had to listen to his whining, stuck with him in that space sphere that seemed to be their home (I never got a good picture of where the hell they were stationed, it just became a metal sphere in space XD).
Did anyone else had a problem visualising the WB surroundings or the places in TFH? Or was it clear from page one?

IMO, Lorgar was overwhelmed with his own powers because he lacked the maturity and everything went downhill. But the same can be said about the other primarchs, they seemed to be deeply flawed and I can't help thinking, not a little creepy. I want to like them but I can't get passed that, the SM never made me feel like that despite the Betcher's Gland and whatnot.
Guilliman, of all people seemed like the normal one, normal as primarch that is, and what the Astartes would become in the future.
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Re: The First Heretic (long text)

Postby Xisor » Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:15 pm

sigillite wrote:
Xisor wrote:
In The First Heretic, what we see is Lorgar portrayed on a journey. He, contrasted well with Vulkan in Promethean Sun, is unable to reconcile what he knows for a fact was the Emperor's [stated and repeated] design/intent and what he both thinks, feels and [to his view] knows is what he should be doing. Vulkan felt he was to be a leader, a protector, a visionary and a charismatic philosopher-king...but he knew the Emperor needed a general, so he had to become the warrior the Emperor intended, to forsake his own conviction for the Emperor. Lorgar couldn't do that.



I disagree on this. Lorgar got to the point where he just refused to do it any longer.


Unsurprisingly, I disagree with your disagreement. :lol:

Vulkan never had a tantrum. Nor did he beat up Malcador. To put it another way (and according to the artist who drew the two 'religious' pictures of the Salamanders in Horus Heresy: Collected visions, although that was generally about the Salamanders, not strictly about Vulkan himself): they never wavered. Even after everything, they still 'had faith' in the Emperor. (According to the artist, this was in contrast to the Dark Angels, who almost/sorta turned.)

Lorgar, on the other hand, was dragging his heels all along. Lorgar's legion was busy building utopias, the Emperor reiterated he wanted worlds conquered. (Note: it was the other primarchs who censured Night Haunter, not the Emperor. An important point? Probably not, but it should be.) Lorgar beats up Malcador. :?

Vivia wrote:What I disliked was the victimisation of the WB legion that the TFH painted, it was poorly done.


I don't see it in the slightest. The victimisation of the legion, that is. It's poorly done because they're victims to nothing more (and nothing less) than themselves: Erebus and Kor Phaeron gank Lorgar by insisting on religifying everything, on Lorgar having to have more than everyone else. They're pushy parents.

But, with that in mind, Lorgar has no bloody business in allowing himself to be dictated as he is. He's weak, he's...rubbish. (It's a coming of age story.)

Aaron's already discussed this: Lorgar isn't supposed to be likeable, or particularly competent (for a primarch). He's a fantastic idealistic world builder...but no-one needs that. That can wait 'til after the enemy aren't at the gates. More to the point, Aaron's noted explicitly that when we next see Lorgar, chronologically (i.e. prob. not in Aurelian), he'll be 'becoming the primarch he was born to be', someone who's not being pushed about, the Primarch who'll be doing the pushing.

But, as you indicate Vivia (though don't say so!), it's Lorgar who acts like the victim, even though it's plain to everyone he's not.

Note how he only takes ~300 folks with him on his 'Soul Search' to the edge of reality? Those 300 are his 'Mournival', to an extent. He gets rid of Erebus and Kor Phaeron for that. They go off and they lead the other Word Bearers (essentially knowing that/relying on Lorgar'll be more 'on their wavelength' when he gets back). As in they start the purges of loyalist Word Bearers and lead the legion without Lorgar's daft victim complex (which even he surely recognises is a Bad Thing, hence only taking a handful of what amount to redshirts with him).

And, of course, note that in Lorgar's 'absence' (lets call it his holiday to Magalu--- The Eye of Terror) the Word Bearers go from being the slowest most agonisingly crawling legion to 'absolutely fine, nothing to see here', better perhaps (I don't quite remember if that's explicit or made-up-by-my-imagination).

I concur fairly on Guilliman being 'normal'. As with Horus in Horus Rising, Ferrus Manus in Fulgrim and Mortarion in Eisenstein, they seem...well adjusted. Fulgrim's a bit of an odd-ball and Magnus is... Magnus. Similarly, the odd camaraderie seen at Nikaea in Prospero Burns is again eerily normal.

And yet, the more screen-time they get (e.g. Mortarion in A Thousand Sons and both himself and Ferrus Manus in Promethean Sun), they do seem a lot less normal. It's played with nicely (if not very well) regarding the Lion. He's brilliant, but his lack of 'getting normal things' is massively undermining him.

Alternatively you could be Night Haunter and actually just be thoroughly loopy.
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Re: The First Heretic (long text)

Postby Vivia » Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:02 pm

I'm not convinced the WB weren't victimised, it was Erebus and KP who pulled the ropes of a hundred thousand, there was no brotherhood there. The "Legion" seemed to only contain Argol Tal, Xaphen, Erebus and KP. Even the Custodians had more screen-time than the rest of the WB.

I see but should one care about Lorgar being the pusher? If TFH had been a chilling tale into the psyche of a weak primarch I would have been thrilled to hear that. I was so happy when I got to the EoT chapters but my enthusiasm dropped like a pancake. I was hoping a Lord of Change would show up. Or something that would have challenged a primarch.

Sorry, I forgot about the Soul Search (he should have looked under the carpet and saved some time) but I still couldn't get any sense of scale there.
Lorgar was the madame Bovary of the primarchs, never content with what life gave him and destroying the lives of his loved ones.
There is nothing gay about the Princeton fight song. "Oh, the men of Princeton are charging up the rear, holding all the balls..." Okay, I hear it now. – Jack, episode Queen of Jordan
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Re: The First Heretic (long text)

Postby sam vimes » Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:19 pm

lorgar did grow on me towards the end and because of that I do like him more at the end as he's made a decision how ever wrong and flawed it was and is going to see it through, but by and large through out I just didn't like him hopefuly sir reynolds will get to play with him and his lads again soon but might as well wish for more darkblade too while im at it *sigh*
"Huron-Fal’s systems were on the verge of shutdown ... ‘This death,’ rasped the voder, ‘this death is ours. We choose it. We deny you your victory.’

"Abandon your fear. Look forward. Move forward and never stop. You'll age if you pull back. You'll die if you hesitate."

"From iron cometh strength. From strength cometh will. From will cometh faith. From faith cometh honour. From honour cometh iron." "And may it ever be so"
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