General Whf Lore Q&A

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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby Athelassan » Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:44 am

"Full plate" in WHF refers to a specific type of armour made with gromril; only Dwarfs (with their gromril armour) and the Empire (for whom the Dwarfs make armour) get to wear it. Elves, who don't have gromril, wear normal heavy armour, which is what human fulll plate used to be before the invention of "full plate" in 6th edition. There used to be "ithilmar" armour which was some sort of elven version of gromril but I don't know how that works any more.

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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby LordLucan » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:03 am

Athelassan wrote:"Full plate" in WHF refers to a specific type of armour made with gromril; only Dwarfs (with their gromril armour) and the Empire (for whom the Dwarfs make armour) get to wear it. Elves, who don't have gromril, wear normal heavy armour, which is what human fulll plate used to be before the invention of "full plate" in 6th edition. There used to be "ithilmar" armour which was some sort of elven version of gromril but I don't know how that works any more.

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My point was, you do get relatively heavily armoured elves in warhammer don't you?
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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby VictorK » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:47 am

When I said "full plate" I meant a 4+ armor save. Athelassan is right, all the canonical full plate empire is made by the Dwarfs. That's why Bretonnians only have heavy armor. There are only 3 4+ armor saves available in the game: gromril armor, full plate, and chaos armor. Though that might have changed in recent books I've been out of the game for most of 8th and 7th edition.

Elves only have access to heavy armor, which means that the max armor save on their cavalry is 2+, which really makes a difference compared to 1+, even if it doesn't seem like much. There's no fluff reason why High Elves and Dark Elves shouldn't have armor as good as Dwarf-made and Chaos armor. I think that the Dwarfs are the greatest craftsmen in the world and can make better armor than elves, but fluffwise the full plate that goes to the Empire is the stuff that apprentices make as part of their training, it's not the work of masters.

So, no, High and Dark Elves really aren't that heavily armored...they're in the middle with all the other races that have access to heavy cavalry and infantry with a heavy armor option, which is almost all races that aren't horde races. Hell even the Skaven stormvermin might have heavy armor, I don't remember. Back in 6th and 7th edition when cavalry armies were viable, before 8th edition changed the combat resolution rules, I used to say that Empire cavalry was, point for point, the best cavalry in the game because of the crucial 1+ armor save, option to make them immune to psychology with a grand master, and the inner circle +1 strength upgrade.
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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby sam vimes » Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:54 pm

dont get me started on that inner circle nerf -_-
"Huron-Fal’s systems were on the verge of shutdown ... ‘This death,’ rasped the voder, ‘this death is ours. We choose it. We deny you your victory.’

"Abandon your fear. Look forward. Move forward and never stop. You'll age if you pull back. You'll die if you hesitate."

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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby Athelassan » Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:17 pm

LordLucan wrote:My point was, you do get relatively heavily armoured elves in warhammer don't you?

Even elite elven infantry (Swordmasters of Hoeth, Executioners) tend to wear chainmail armour with a breastplate or vambraces/pauldrons (rarely both, for some stupid reason). I think the only elves who wear anything like what we (as opposed to the game) would call full plate are the Dragon Princes and maybe the Cold One Knights. Even the Black Guard wear chainmail skirts with not much plate on their lower armour.

The artwork does tend to depict Dark Elves wearing slightly heavier armour in general, but it still stops short of the full-body suits of the Empire and Dwarfs.

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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby Dennis the Hamster » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:22 pm

Here's my personal take on the armour situation (and it is personal, nothing more).

There's a special metal in Warhammer, called gromril by the dwarfs and ithilmar by the elves. It is as sturdy as steel, or sturdier, and lighter too. Being lighter, the dwarfs realise they can make a suit of armour that weighs as much as their normal armour but is thicker and adds protection. Conversely, the elves decide they can make armour that protects them just as well as their steel armour but weighs a lot less. Same stuff (possibly) used in different ways due to cultural outlook.

Now that armour movement mods have changed a lot over the editions of Warhammer the benefits of the elven lighter armour don't translate into the game so easily. Ho hum...

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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby schaferwhat‽ » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:27 pm

don't Elves have "always strike first" I presume that is in part due to the armour being lighter.

I'd also not rule out the Elven tendency to place aesthetics and notions of beauty and Elven propriety above practical matters with regard this. The Elves have a culture of duelling and elegant sword play whereas the Dwarfs are tunnel fighters. It just isn't right for an Elf to go about caked in metal head to toe, it is what the lesser more barbaric races like humans and dwarfs who don't understand how they should conduct themselves.
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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby sam vimes » Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:51 pm

Either I picked up a dodgy Empire army book or Robert Cruddace got rid of half of the Empires armoury/wargear section, can some compare the last Empire book with the last one I left mine at work in my locker. I hope I'm mis reading the book and this banging headache is affecting my sight lol
"Huron-Fal’s systems were on the verge of shutdown ... ‘This death,’ rasped the voder, ‘this death is ours. We choose it. We deny you your victory.’

"Abandon your fear. Look forward. Move forward and never stop. You'll age if you pull back. You'll die if you hesitate."

"From iron cometh strength. From strength cometh will. From will cometh faith. From faith cometh honour. From honour cometh iron." "And may it ever be so"
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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby Athelassan » Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:52 am

sam vimes wrote:Either I picked up a dodgy Empire army book

You did. That's not to say it's not the same version as everyone else got.

Having said that, I'm not sure there's any less content, rules-wise, in this one than in the last. The armoury is on p.31 and includes all the same experimental weaponry as the equivalent page in the 7th ed book (p.47). The artillery section is shorter, because it puts all the rules on one double-page spread (p.48-49) rather than giving each artillery piece a separate page, although all the same artillery is included.

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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby schaferwhat‽ » Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:58 am

compared to the one before the one before that (the last one I got) it was a bit shorter, mostly they skimped on magic items though.
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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby sam vimes » Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:06 am

Thanks lads damn I'm gonna miss the biting blade and sword of strength done right with the old list you could outfit a scary commander or two
"Huron-Fal’s systems were on the verge of shutdown ... ‘This death,’ rasped the voder, ‘this death is ours. We choose it. We deny you your victory.’

"Abandon your fear. Look forward. Move forward and never stop. You'll age if you pull back. You'll die if you hesitate."

"From iron cometh strength. From strength cometh will. From will cometh faith. From faith cometh honour. From honour cometh iron." "And may it ever be so"
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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby SIngemeister » Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:11 pm

What do we know, if anything, about the following:
The Strigany
The Hinterlands of Khuresh
The Lost Isle of Elithis
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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby Athelassan » Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:24 am

SIngemeister wrote:What do we know, if anything, about the following:
The Hinterlands of Khuresh
The Lost Isle of Elithis

Not a lot. There is a type of beastman known as the Khureshi that are tiger-form and it's generally asumed that they are prevalent in the eponymous Hinterlands. The Lost Isles of Elithis are pretty much unknown other than the name and that there were (and maybe are) elven colonies there.
The Strigany

]These are the human descendants of the people of Strigos/Mourkhain, which was the civilisation run by, depending on the background, either Kadon and Ushoran, or just Ushoran (the current take seems to be that it was Kadon and then Ushoran). With the destruction of that state they started travelling and have become a largely nomadic group (or, rather, groups). Their association with the Strigoi vampires seems to vary from group to group, with some of them actively worshipping them and/or working for them, and others just trying to make a living. There's a bit of information on them around the place (most notably, the WFRP2 books Night's Dark Masters and WFRP Companion) and they feature in a couple of novels*, but they haven't been thoroughly fleshed out.

*Wild Kingdoms, Savage City, Ancient Blood, and at least one C.L. Werner story (Meat Wagon?)

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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby SIngemeister » Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:33 am

Whelp, artistic license time.
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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby Mossy Toes » Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:51 am

Athelassan wrote:...and at least one C.L. Werner story (Meat Wagon?)

The short story "Meat Wagon," yes, and also Witch Killer--both contained in the Witch Hunter Omnibus, handily enough. They appear to be a WHF people roughly equivalent to the Roma in Europe, if I'm not mistaken. They certainly are mistrusted and reckoned to be thieves and pickpockets as a people, according to popular conception.
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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby Carandini » Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:33 am

I think the Strigany answer to the 'gypsy' archetype in Warhammer. Notwithstanding Brian Craig's The Wine of Dreams which has actual gypsies (I prefer to think of them as Strigany under another name).

Oh, and you can add 'Mind-stealer' to the list of stories with Strigany as they form a majority of the circus Grey Seer Thanquol attacks.
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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby sam vimes » Wed May 01, 2013 1:55 pm

Heres one for you Konrad do you believe he is a blood descendent of sigmar or he was merely chosen by sigamar? me personally a blood descendent
"Huron-Fal’s systems were on the verge of shutdown ... ‘This death,’ rasped the voder, ‘this death is ours. We choose it. We deny you your victory.’

"Abandon your fear. Look forward. Move forward and never stop. You'll age if you pull back. You'll die if you hesitate."

"From iron cometh strength. From strength cometh will. From will cometh faith. From faith cometh honour. From honour cometh iron." "And may it ever be so"
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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby Athelassan » Wed May 01, 2013 4:34 pm

Konrad from the Konrad novels? Well, I'm inclined to take those with a pinch of salt given some of the other stuff that happens in the series - half-elves and suchlike. I'd say the Konrad stories are probably more akin to in-universe stories about a great folk hero, and not necessarily true. But then I'm never keen on discarding any published material unless absolutely necessary (sorry, Van Horstmann), so anything that can be preserved without irreparably damaging the rest I'm happy enough to keep in.

To be honest, there can't be many people in the Empire who aren't descended from Sigmar. He had at least two recognised bastard children, and probably more (two by Queen Freya, and The Enemy Within indicated he had one more on his journey to the east. Fathering illegitimate children at the age of eighty is good going; Lord Palmerston-esque... but I digress). The von Bildhofen family (including Magnus the Pious) and therefore the Todbringers, are descended from him. Some of the older deuterocanonical background (Hogshead WFRP1 stuff) also indicates that Boris Goldgather was in some way a legitimised descendant of Sigmar, and give the name of another currently extant family claiming descent (the imaginatively-named von Sigmars, although it does suggest the family might have just made it up). So there are quite a few.

Given that Sigmar had descendants, and that those descendants reproduced leading to more descendants, and so on, and given the normal rate and pattern of human reproduction, his genes should have propagated themselves to pretty much every corner of the Empire. Thinking about it in real-world terms, it's mathematically almost certain that the entire native population of England is descended from Henry I, and it's been suggested that Henry II might be the last cut-off point. The vast majority of us are descended from Edward III, and the same goes on the continent for chaps like Charlemagne, and (famously) Genghis Khan. Since those real historical figures lived in most cases less than a thousand years ago, and Sigmar over two thousand in WHF terms, it's likely that he's a common ancestor of almost everyone, except recent immigrants (Ostland/Ostermark?) and maybe some of the really isolated communities out in the wilderness, the middle of the forest or the Sylvanian fens.

Having said that, WHF doesn't seem to conform entirely to normal demographic principles or pressures, and a lot of the figures are somewhat questionable... so it might be that, if the figures are accurate and not just wrong, WHF just works entirely differently, Sigmar's descendants are few in number, and they're all special. I'd hope that this isn't the case, and the way the descendants of Aenarion were handled gives me some hope (i.e. there were lots of them, not known to each other or necessarily to themselves, until a supernatural being decided to try to kill them all) but that was William King material, and Mr King tends to put a little more thought into some of his world-building than other writers I could name. To be honest, the "few and special" model would be the norm for fantasy universes.

Leaving that aside... in some ways, Konrad would almost be more special if he weren't descended from Sigmar. In any case, it clearly takes something more than Sigmarite descent to make an individual special or designate them as a "true heir" or "Sigmar reborn" or whatever. Whether that's some sort of tapping-on-the-shoulder from the relevant god or something more personal, who knows. I'm inclined to think that Konrad is "just" a hero, and that any status acquired as an iconic figure of the Sigmarite faith is something others see in him, not necessarily something inherent to him as an individual. To be perfectly honest, there are so many "true heirs" of Sigmar knocking about in the background to some extent or other (Magnus, Heinrich Todbringer, that grey wizard Karl Franz, Valten, Luthor Huss(?)) that it'd be quite refreshing to have a hero who wasn't. It's been a long time since I read the books, though, so there might be more clues in there that I've forgotten.

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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby SIngemeister » Thu May 02, 2013 2:02 am

Speaking of Sigmar, do we know what happened to the Sisters of Sigmar post-Mordheim?
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Re: General Whf Lore Q&A

Postby Athelassan » Thu May 02, 2013 3:08 am

SIngemeister wrote:Speaking of Sigmar, do we know what happened to the Sisters of Sigmar post-Mordheim?

Not that particular sect, no, although there are plenty of other Sigmarite nunneries around and "Sisters of Sigmar" with a similar style and iconography will still be a thing in the current setting. If I remember rightly, the Sisters in Mordheim had developed some sort of heretical belief to do with the comet and wyrdstone? If they managed to survive there until 300 years later, the chances are that Magnus rubbed them out when he razed the city and started altering the history books.

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