General 40K Lore Q&A

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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby Athelassan » Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:45 pm

Xisor wrote:
revelation wrote:I've always kind of wondered about this, but never was able to really formulate a satisfactory answer. What purpose did Chaplains serve during the HH era? In an Imperium that was secular why the need for them and why the religious terminology, the term Chaplain? It seems problematic & somewhat confusing. Would it have been a bit more convincing/believable to have come up with a different name for this role in the 30k setting and to state that it eventually evolved into a more "faith" oriented role once the Imperial Creed became prevalent?

Then again, even in a "modern" 40k setting, the concept of a 40k Chaplain, feels slightly off considering most Space Marine chapters don't consider the Emperor a god, rather just the most exemplary and most powerful human to ever live.

I get ya. In 40k at least, the ancestor worshipiness and dogma at least makes sense, even if less theistic. More priestly/druid/spiritual than clergy.

In HH, however, Chaplain is indeed a problem. Astatres Iterators is really the gist of it. But they could have been seen as much more political animals, much more on the propaganda war, much more about the rules and regulations are important, not just whatever...

There's depth there. All the meat of The Thick Of It is basically around toeing the line and the Orwellian rewriting of what people know to be true. A trick is being missed in the HH, in my esteem.

Same with Librarians and Techmarines and Apothecaries actually being serious scholars and engineers and health professionals. There's a huge scope for story (and, yes, conflict - they could all be fiercely, violently aggressive in their various professions' factions and disciplines, quite in addition to loyalist/traitor), and it's barely even started with.

Instead, let's have more Captain/Sergeant buddy adventures.

It does seem like world-building is at times being sacrificed in favour of... super soldiers and big bangs.

I think the reason they're "Chaplains" rather than anything else is quite simply that that's what they were called in the background before the Heresy fluff was devised and therefore predate the "atheistic Imperium" that has now become familiar. That should probably have been changed, and since Chaplains didn't actually make an appearance in the novels until some way in, if I remember rightly, I'm not sure why it was. But GW can be infuriatingly conservative about minutiae while remarkably blasé about everything else in the background at times.

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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby schaferwhat‽ » Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:59 pm

I remember chatting to McNeill at a signing after outcast dead was announced and he'd just started working on it. I asked about how the soulbinding works for Astropaths if the notion of a soul isn't held by the Imperium of the time. No one had considered that. Sometimes the worldbuilding is a tad lacking in the Heresy.
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby Rob P » Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:18 pm

Wasn't the Chaplain thing just Word Bearers until Nikaea? Thought they were brought in to ensure edict was complied with. I'm probably wrong ..
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby David Earle » Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:08 pm

Chaplains originated with the Word Bearers. Other Legions were encouraged to emulate the model, and I think rather strongly after Nikaea, but it wasn't fully adopted or enforced. I think Fear to Tread dealt with this in the most detail so far.
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby revelation » Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:18 am

Other than enforcing the edict, what other role were they officially suppose to play?

edit: To enforce the Imperial Truth? Legion counselors?
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby Rob P » Sat Aug 29, 2015 9:58 pm

In the audiodrama The Watcher (the rest is a mild spoiler, but the answer can only come from someone that has listened to it) ...

Spoiler: There is a librarian in the Knights Errant that despises his Primarch. The various plot spoilers on the web refer to him being a Blood Angel and then go on to discuss why a Blood Angel librarian, that is loyal, might despise his Primarch. My question is this: Where in the audiodrama does it say it's a Blood Angel? I've listened to it a couple of times and still can't find it

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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby revelation » Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:45 am

revelation wrote:Other than enforcing the edict, what other role were they officially suppose to play?

edit: To enforce the Imperial Truth? Legion counselors?


David Earle wrote:Chaplains originated with the Word Bearers. Other Legions were encouraged to emulate the model, and I think rather strongly after Nikaea, but it wasn't fully adopted or enforced. I think Fear to Tread dealt with this in the most detail so far.


I can't recall what Fear to Tread covered about Chaplains. Were Chaplains implemented in the Word Bearer's Legion under the guise of being enforcers of the Edict of Nikaea or maybe even in a broader sense as Xisor implied as essentially Astartes Iterators, Legionaries that enforced the Imperial Truth as "educators and propagandists"?
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby Rob P » Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:10 am

I took a quick look through Collected Visions and it says that the Chaplains were introduced to the other legions, by the Word Bearers, on the Emperor's request, specifically for the purpose of enforcing the Edict of Nikaea.

The main purpose of the Chaplains in Fear to Tread was to constantly watch over the ex-librarians.

What is a little confusing is that the lore as written in Collected Visions appears to suggest that Nikaea happened before the Emperor rebuked the Word Bearers or, at least, that Nikaea happened a long time before the heresy. So take it with a pinch of salt!

That they are called Chaplains appears to come from the mere fact that they come from the religious legion. Whether they were iterators or not, I don't know. I don't see why not. They are quite similar to Commissars, but they 'use their words' rather then their first to tow the line. I don't think that they have particularly developed a more religious role (as I recall that most chapters don't view the Emperor as a god), but they do appear to be the history keepers in 40k and there to keep the line troops on the path of the chapter's ideals.
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby Rob P » Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:20 pm

Firstly: is this correct?

Scars ---> Dwell ---> Molech

Next: where do the following fit in?

Meduson anthology stories / The Seventh Serpent / Deathfire

Next: Any clues or theories on what The Wolf was doing between Vengeful Spirit and Battle of Terra?

Finally: What is the latest (in the timeline) BL story to date? And, bar little perpetual vignettes, what is the earliest (The Last Church?)?
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby revelation » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:42 am

Rob P wrote:I took a quick look through Collected Visions and it says that the Chaplains were introduced to the other legions, by the Word Bearers, on the Emperor's request, specifically for the purpose of enforcing the Edict of Nikaea.

The main purpose of the Chaplains in Fear to Tread was to constantly watch over the ex-librarians.

What is a little confusing is that the lore as written in Collected Visions appears to suggest that Nikaea happened before the Emperor rebuked the Word Bearers or, at least, that Nikaea happened a long time before the heresy. So take it with a pinch of salt!

That they are called Chaplains appears to come from the mere fact that they come from the religious legion. Whether they were iterators or not, I don't know. I don't see why not. They are quite similar to Commissars, but they 'use their words' rather then their first to tow the line.


Thanks for that bit of research Rob.

Rob P wrote:I don't think that they have particularly developed a more religious role (as I recall that most chapters don't view the Emperor as a god), but they do appear to be the history keepers in 40k and there to keep the line troops on the path of the chapter's ideals.


Wouldn't you say though that even in some legions during the Heresy, as characterized in some HH novels (Deathfire pops to mind), that Chaplains veer towards the "spiritual"? Especially in legions/chapters that had cultural roots in some kind of shamanism/religion/mythos?
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby Xisor » Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:17 pm

Rev, one could argue Kyril Sinderman fulfills that role for Loken, interpersonally. Wise man, counsellor, font of knowledge and legacy of culture. All that.

As it is, I also dislike the very... 40k feel of Nick's 30k Salamanders. It's rich enough, and I like the ideas, but feel it's simply... incorrect. Ten thousand years. And they don't change too much? Pfft. Not as bad as McNeill's Sigmar, but it grates on me. Same with Heresy Iron Hands (though I've not read Meduson yet [Terrible name, like Terron of Terra or Marson of Mars] ).

What ought to be? Well, I think having spiritual/'wellbeing' counsellors is quite neat. Especially if you add in a dash/ton of strong cultural trappings too. Needn't be religious, either theistic or spiritual, but could be very strong and distinct and edging quite far from Anglican benevolence or warrior priest.

(I have a strange image of Emperor's Children chaplains named Brother Niles and Brother Frasier...)
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby Athelassan » Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:40 pm

Rob P wrote:Finally: What is the latest (in the timeline) BL story to date? And, bar little perpetual vignettes, what is the earliest (The Last Church?)?


I think the Cain novels are the latest ones with dates confirmed, and may even have been set in M42, if memory serves. Unless you mean HH-only, in which case I have no idea; I've lost track completely.

I can't think of any stories exclusively set earlier than The Last Church and certainly no novels. Athame has some earlier bits but the whole story covers a very long time period.

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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby Rob P » Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:32 pm

Yeah, my mistake; I meant HH, but didn't say. I suspect it might be 'All that remains' for reasons.

Edit: On the topic of Chaplains and Nikaea, re-reading Scars it is apparent that Nikaea occurred after Ullanor and after the White Scars were sent to Chondax. Does that even make sense in the timeline? This is getting more confusing!
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby Xisor » Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:51 pm

Rob P wrote:Yeah, my mistake; I meant HH, but didn't say. I suspect it might be 'All that remains' for reasons.

Edit: On the topic of Chaplains and Nikaea, re-reading Scars it is apparent that Nikaea occurred after Ullanor and after the White Scars were sent to Chondax. Does that even make sense in the timeline? This is getting more confusing!


Yes, but only just. It means that Nikaea had to be really close to the start of the Heresy. Which underlines how odd it is not to have almost any mention of the ex librarians or non-Erebus chaplains until Battle for the Abyss and... Fallen Angels?

The epilogue of 'Betrayer' might be the furthest along bit of actual, reliable content in the Heresy? As for full stories, I wonder if the Sol system or Garro stories aren't furthest along? 'The Gates of Terra' struck me as quite far in.
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby Rob P » Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:50 pm

I can't remember the content of the epilogue in Betrayer!? I suppose there is also the epilogue in Know No Fear (but that might be in the scouring)
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby David Earle » Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:37 pm

Betrayer's epilogue has been superseded by Unremembered Empire, which is superseded by Deathfire. (And a direct follow-on to Betrayer came out as an audio short that got collected as a short story - can't remember the name.) I think Deathfire might be the furthest along, although we're dealing with parallel events to some extent - there's no way to link Vengeful Spirit to the events in Ultramar, that I can recall.

Gates of Terra might take the prize, but I can't for the life of me remember what happens in that one.
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby Xisor » Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:01 pm

David Earle wrote:Betrayer's epilogue has been superseded by Unremembered Empire, which is superseded by Deathfire. (And a direct follow-on to Betrayer came out as an audio short that got collected as a short story - can't remember the name.) I think Deathfire might be the furthest along, although we're dealing with parallel events to some extent - there's no way to link Vengeful Spirit to the events in Ultramar, that I can recall.

Gates of Terra might take the prize, but I can't for the life of me remember what happens in that one.


TUE went further?

Spoiler: It was the Chapters assembling to destroy Colchis, wasn't it?

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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby David Earle » Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:05 pm

Wuzzah huh? The epilogue to Betrayer was

Spoiler: Lorgar leaving the World Eaters with Daemon-Angron, Erebus getting splatted, and Angron requesting a throne of skulls.



That was in the enhanced eBook. Not sure what you're talking about - different book? Did I miss something? Is there another Betrayer?
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby Rob P » Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:28 pm

Xisor, I think that was Know No Fear and there is still the question of whether that is during the scouring.

That aside I suspect All That Remains is the furthest along because it mentions

Spoiler: traitor Thousand Sons

.

Could do with that official HH team timeline about now!
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Re: General 40K Lore Q&A

Postby Xisor » Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:42 pm

Rob P wrote:Xisor, I think that was Know No Fear and there is still the question of whether that is during the scouring.


Aha! That makes sense. Certainly a very far along bit seen from a HH book though, especially if not what folk consider to be the HH itself!
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