Skip to content

Primaris Space Marines - headcannon to realcanon

A place to discuss all Warhammer-related background and products not explicitly connected to the Black Library.

Primaris Space Marines - headcannon to realcanon

Postby Xisor » Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:11 pm

Hola folks, I'm sure you'll be aware of this - but assuming not, here's a brief 'news so far'.

Guilliman commissioned some upgrades by a techpriest posr-Scouring. Three new organs, closer to primarchs, but fundamentally space marines. Bigger.

They need updated armour/arms too.

It's now (roughly) 110M41 in the 42nd Millennium.

Ultramarines were the first to be reinforced by Primaris.

----

So here's some headcanon of mine.

1- these are built upon the work of Corax, Fabius Bile, the Cursed Founding, and similar efforts. Perhaps even wholesale plagiarisim.

2- they're more resistant to hypnoindoctrination, meaning their 'know no fear' (and other fortitudes) is rather poor compared to the 'perfected' (blessed is the mond too small for doubt) codex Marines.

3- plenty of Marines had been reinforced prior to the Ultramarines. Testing is important.

4- They are susceptible to Genestealer ovipostors.

5- They are key to easily/unavoidably demonstrating the 'workaround' that, unequivocally, women Space Marines had been possible all along.
"When my housemate puts his bike in the middle of the living room floor, I find that inordinately jarring, annoying and rude, but for me to refer to it as "genocide" would be incorrect." -Ath
xisor.wordpress
Xisor's Dice-o-matic Maiminator
User avatar
Xisor
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4838
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:13 pm
Location: Bournemouth & Canterbury

Re: Primaris Space Marines - headcannon to realcanon

Postby Obscura Boy » Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:29 pm

Interesting ideas! I'm curious to know your reasoning behind 2 and 4 - are these just your own musings (and if so, muse on!), or is there some basis for them in the official background? I must admit that I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to all this new-fangled lore.

5 is particularly interesting! Elaborate, do!
My other car is a Land Raider.
User avatar
Obscura Boy
 
Posts: 134
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:51 pm

Re: Primaris Space Marines - headcannon to realcanon

Postby Rob P » Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:48 pm

Am I right in thinking there are new recruit to primaris marines AND astartes to primaris marines?

I like some of these thoughts.

Can see why fast track marines might suffer poor hypnoindoctrination. Would this make them nearer 30k marines?

I can see them going off message quicker than regular marines.

Wonder if space wolf primaris will be true space wilves. If their geneseed is more stable will the be less Wulfen like? Or will they go the way of the Wolf brothers?

Think Fabius Bile might look to kidnap Cawl.

Don't see female space marines coming but it's permissible I guess.

Have some other thoughts too but it goes beyond primaris marines.
User avatar
Rob P
 
Posts: 1334
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:09 pm

Re: Primaris Space Marines - headcannon to realcanon

Postby Xisor » Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:58 pm

Obscura Boy wrote:Interesting ideas! I'm curious to know your reasoning behind 2 and 4 - are these just your own musings (and if so, muse on!), or is there some basis for them in the official background? I must admit that I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to all this new-fangled lore.

5 is particularly interesting! Elaborate, do!


They're very much my own musings, but also 'logical leaps' based on existing leaps. E.g. we know that hypnoindoctrination was heavily increased after the Heresy - it stands to reason that the freewheeling might have been curtailed by that. Primaris as loose cannons (not to mention loose canon! :lol: ) quite appeals to me!

For 4 - it *always* felt like an inexcusable cheat, to me. "Genestealers are world-ending threats of monumental body and psychological horror... but not if you're a Space Marine."

For 5 - I think it's already absurd. I'm fond of the idea of simply retconning that it was and has always been possible. It's not as if Space Marines don't exhibit stereotypically feminine traits - gossiping, broodiness, preening vanity, mental fortitude mixed with hysteria. In that regard my only concern is that it may seem cheap and easy - tokenism. Nevertheless, if you're expressing a hefty upgrade on the original of such epic proportions - why the bloody hell not?

In many novels the Adepta Sororitas are written as far more fanatical and inhuman than the vast bulk of Space Marine characters. I think it'd be damned intriguing to open the floor.

I'd even speculated that Guilliman's first scene should be the place to lay the groundwork.

*stasis bubble pops*
Tigurius: "He awakens!"
Calgar: "Cover him. Get those aeldari away!"
Agemman: *through tears* "My liege."
Ventris: "I told you he wasn't dead."
Learchus: "It's not that he wasn't dead, but that it wasn'ta practical concern until now, Captain."
Sicarius: "Maybe I'll get my own Chapter..."
Guilliman: *yawns* "You're not Fulg-... oh, I see. One question: where are my daughters?"

You get the idea.

Rob P wrote:Am I right in thinking there are new recruit to primaris marines AND astartes to primaris marines?

I'm not entirely sure. The first Primaris are products of the 31st Millennium intake - and I don't recall any characters who've been 'upgraded'. There's also a question of whether old-form Marines will remain in production, in universe.

Rob P wrote:Can see why fast track marines might suffer poor hypnoindoctrination. Would this make them nearer 30k marines?
I'd definitely think so, but then I also like the idea that 40k Marines are, one for one, thousand for thousand, superior to 30k Marines. Think the Genesis Marine Captain that First Claw meet in Void Stalker. A charmless professional of unrelenting skill, wrapped in the body of a religious fanatic.

Rob P wrote:I can see them going off message quicker than regular marines.
Off-message is a wonderful phrase. I love it.

Rob P wrote:Wonder if space wolf primaris will be true space wilves. If their geneseed is more stable will the be less Wulfen like? Or will they go the way of the Wolf brothers?


I'd love to think the latter. Fenris Primaris, mostly fine. Off-worlders? Disasters to put the Cursed Founding to shame.

Rob P wrote:Think Fabius Bile might look to kidnap Cawl.


I rather like the idea that they're in cahoots - that at some point there was voluntary cross-germination of ideas.

Rob P wrote:Don't see female space marines coming but it's permissible I guess.


Yeah, I'm not convinced GW would bite - but it's the case that if the more can tolerate Guilliman up and about, and Mk2 Space Marines. (Space Marines Secondus, really. Primaris should be the existing ones.) Really: they're missing out on a sizeable half of humanity as fodder for the mortal engine.

Rob P wrote:Have some other thoughts too but it goes beyond primaris marines.


Fire away, or spin up another thread. There's no shortage of details to focus down on!
"When my housemate puts his bike in the middle of the living room floor, I find that inordinately jarring, annoying and rude, but for me to refer to it as "genocide" would be incorrect." -Ath
xisor.wordpress
Xisor's Dice-o-matic Maiminator
User avatar
Xisor
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4838
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:13 pm
Location: Bournemouth & Canterbury

Re: Primaris Space Marines - headcannon to realcanon

Postby David Earle » Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:51 pm

I really do need to catch up on all this Primaris fiddle-faddle.

4: I'd posit that Genestealers eventually adapt to infect Space Marines, rather than Primaris having anything to do with it. Much more Tyrannic.

5: The last excuse I heard on this was that the Space Marine process leverages male puberty somehow and the organs won't work properly without, and - y'know, so much faddle. But practically speaking, a Space Marine is a hulking slab of muscle riddled with implants - the artwork never gets the scale across properly, but you're looking at the Hulk. Putting a woman through the process would result in a female Space Marine, but aside from checking under the hood there wouldn't be a practical way to tell the difference. Not that I'm opposed to the idea.
Check out my blog!

"David is very very old, but also slow, he creeps up behind you without you noticing and then just as his non-breath fails to be felt against your neck he pounces and gives you an informative post." - schaferwhat‽

Ogunzhar lives!
User avatar
David Earle
 
Posts: 1264
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:36 am
Location: Annapolis, MD

Re: Primaris Space Marines - headcannon to realcanon

Postby schaferwhat‽ » Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:24 pm

I think we may be jumping the gun (but I haven't really delved into the fluff in my 40k rule book yet) a little bit.

In someways I can see the hypnoindoctrination being lax, not because they're more resistant but because they aren't being done as well, both for time but also a lack of experience, a Chaplain in any Chapter will see when a Scout needs a top up and make sure things stick. Cawl thinks he made the Primaris incorruptible so there is no need to do it worse.

My headcannon has genderless Astartes that come from both genders in the first place so this doesn't matter there.

I think the thing that stuck with me is that they're so much more specialised than standard Astartes. They don't have special weapons or variety within their units, they don't rotate through the devastator and assault companies to become really good at everything before being considered for tactical roles. Partly because there wasn't the time but they are hyper-specialised and if anything that sort of makes me think that perhaps the redesigned hypnoindoctrination they have could if anything leave them unable to be creative or inventive or learn a skillset and apply it in a new situation.

Almost to the extent that if they're ever in situation where things go really wrong they can't cope, they'll just keep acting as per their last order until they're dead because even if they realise it is suicide, and futile and useless and that there must be something better they could be doing instead damned if any of them will come up with it.
User avatar
schaferwhat‽
 
Posts: 2850
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:25 pm
Location: Behind your eyes looking out in terror.

Re: Primaris Space Marines - headcannon to realcanon

Postby Obscura Boy » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:14 am

2- they're more resistant to hypnoindoctrination, meaning their 'know no fear' (and other fortitudes) is rather poor compared to the 'perfected' (blessed is the mond too small for doubt) codex Marines.


Now that I think about it, it would actually make more sense to me if the opposite of this were true, and Primaris Marines were actually far more rigidly hypnoindoctrinated than regular Marines. This is for a few reasons:

1) It would explain (to me, at least) why their weapon loadouts are so much more rigidly defined; AFAIK, Intercessors and the like are strictly limited in what weapons they can take, lacking the flexibility of Tactical/Assault/Devastator Marines. One could speculate that their hypnoindoctrination is so regimented that they're literally unable to use weapons that Guilliman didn't intend for them, ie. "Here, Primaris Marine, use my flamer!" "CANNOT COMPLY, DOES NOT COMPUTE."

2) Following on from that, it makes far more sense to me for Guilliman - famously the guy who wrote a whole book telling ALL Space Marines how they should organise themselves - to want his Nu Marines a whole lot more, well, standardised, almost to the point of automatism. So it follows that their hypnoindoctrination would be WAY more intense, to make sure that they conformed to his designs perfectly, even if it means losing their individuality.

3) This is the biggie, for me. If you look back at the history of the Astartes, they rebel and turn to Chaos ALL THE GOD-DAMN TIME. Going on the number of them you read about in the lore (which, I grant you, will be biased towards telling those stories 'cause they're interesting), there must be something like a 10-20% rate of Chapters turning to the dark side (Sith Marines, anyone?). So if you're telling me the Primaris Marines are even more resistant to hypnoindoctrination, and that an enormous Warp rift has split the Imperium in two, thereby dramatically increasing the Chaotic influence in the galaxy, every single Primaris Marine should have turned to Chaos within about a month of deployment.

All of this is assuming I've understood what hypnoindoctrination is/does. But it does make overwhelmingly more sense to me.
My other car is a Land Raider.
User avatar
Obscura Boy
 
Posts: 134
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:51 pm

Re: Primaris Space Marines - headcannon to realcanon

Postby Xisor » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:34 am

I get ya, but I'm inclined to disagree, though mainly thematically rather than nitpicking.

In principle, the Primaris are the 'bright saviour in an eclipse of evil (EYHBTIAL), and instinctively my urge is to lock them quickly into being even grimmer and darker than what went before.

The problem, I suppose, is that it's taken me a long time to see the Marines as that grim dark. I always felt Ragnar and Uriel were too tepid and freewheeling to be genuine Marines. My 'training' tells me that patience is victory here. Demonstrate that the hyperindoctrination is necessary. You can only be freewheeling after many centuries of compliance.

But these new Marines are fast forwards and shortcuts. So in the short term they should seem like a great idea. Harder, better, faster, stronger.

But their flaw can be a long term flaw: they're mind is not too small to be blessed and free from doubt. Not battlefield rigidity (indeed Guy played that in DI - Guilliman despairing at the 'degradation and divergence' of the Codex rather than the success and adaptation of it).

It's very much viewing the old 40k view that the Codex was an almost religious document. Taken that way Guilliman is right on the money and the Primaris are more freely adaptable.

Which is good, I suppose. But we can fuse the two views by having Guilliman *slightly* misread the situation - what if Calgar's approach was right? What if the Ynnari start reforming the Eldar Empire? I'd like to see Ultramar fight that...

In short: I'm inclined to let the Primaris be all singing and all dancing, if only because Dwarfen cynicism tells me that new-fangled is never a match for old-fangled. Not when it matters.
"When my housemate puts his bike in the middle of the living room floor, I find that inordinately jarring, annoying and rude, but for me to refer to it as "genocide" would be incorrect." -Ath
xisor.wordpress
Xisor's Dice-o-matic Maiminator
User avatar
Xisor
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4838
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:13 pm
Location: Bournemouth & Canterbury

Re: Primaris Space Marines - headcannon to realcanon

Postby Major Rawne » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:40 pm

Bearing in mind i've not yet read a huge amount on the new background, here are my thoughts on the first few points:

1- these are built upon the work of Corax, Fabius Bile, the Cursed Founding, and similar efforts. Perhaps even wholesale plagiarisim.


On the one hand there is the wonderful idea of a mad scientist being locked away for ten thousand years left to his own devices to experiment. But the more practical side of me is reminded of the whole knowledge is power, so why wouldn't Cawl seek out any and all information pertaining to space marine genetics and where applicable incorporate that into his work. I also imagine that while Cawl's work is super secret he is also sufficiently senior enough that he has a virtual green light to access whatever information he needs from across the Imperium. After all who's going to question it if the computer says yes.

2- they're more resistant to hypnoindoctrination, meaning their 'know no fear' (and other fortitudes) is rather poor compared to the 'perfected' (blessed is the mond too small for doubt) codex Marines.


Interesting thought, but I think i'm more of the mind that they're not more resistant but rather have been put through the lighter rigours of hypnoindoctrination great crusade era marines went through, and not the strictures that have built up post Heresy and over the thousands of years since.

3- plenty of Marines had been reinforced prior to the Ultramarines. Testing is important.


I've lost count of the number of times i've read about a space marine who's big for a space marine. Then again, perhaps there were whole chapters of these guys roaming out there over the years. Doesn't the background talk about how rare it would be to see a space marine, the majority of people wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
User avatar
Major Rawne
 
Posts: 1093
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 11:24 am
Location: Under Your Bed


Return to Worlds of Warhammer

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests