Ask... GAV THORPE

[Dennis the Hamster]

Oh yeah, that one too.



Gav

[Lord of the Night]

Hey Gav,

Just read the MoS extract on the website. First off: Astelan!! Second, Asmodai seems an interesting individual up close. Personally I think that the Lion wouldn't even spit on him, he's so far from what the Lion envisioned of the Dark Angels, but no denying he gets results... most of the time. And until the day comes when he crosses the line and Azrael will be forced to deal with him one and for all, he is one of the DA's best weapons in the hunt for the Fallen. I look forward to seeing what goes on in his head and how he justifies the extremes he goes to.

Also I have a question for you regarding something another author added. In Pandorax the Traitor Corpulax, who was a Consecrator, claims that he has spoken with the only Fallen to ever escape the Rock, though due to time flow issues that hadn't happened yet for the Dark Angels he spoke to. Is there any chance that the escape would ever be explored, perhaps in a short story?? (My money is on Astelan being the escapee.)


LotN

[Dennis the Hamster]

(My money is on Astelan being the escapee.)


LotN

I really couldn't comment

Gav

[Liliedhe]

I finished Ravenlord yesterday.

Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. It didn't make me cry, but it made me feel like crying. Given what you said after the last one, I'm pretty sure that was the intention^^. By now, reading HH books has become a rollercoaster and more than a little harrowing on occasion - but it's still so bloody good. Everything that can evoke such emotions has to be, even if they are not pleasant emotions.

Following is a bit of rambling and a question.

Spoiler: I really really liked the discussion of faith and hope and ideology in the book. I have - in the field of my work - read lots of academic discussions there, and - minus footnotes - this is just as complex and in depth.

The book really showed how it all boils down to the human spirit - and neither Space Marines nor Primarchs have any advantage over the normal baseline humans there. They can despair - or hope - just as easily as humans do.

I'm really glad Arendi was not the traitor. I felt so bad for him during his interrogation. And who can ever forgive him for what he did? Certainly Corax is not capable of giving him absolution there...

*tongue in cheek* They should start an Isstvan Survivors Anonymous self help group...

I bet Corax would very much agree with Horus on "functionally immortal is not invulnerable". That part just hurt to read.

The traitor and his last words were... *wince* I'm glad that he remained a complex person. Not merely a no-good scumbag, or a paragon. He was just a person.

Now, for the question(s):

Will we see more of the loyalist Night Lord? So happy he exists.

And what is your take on Lorgar? Did he lie to the abandoned loyalists? Or was it the truth when he told them that he loved them? Personally I feel that Lorgar, more than any other primarch, knows how love can be toxic and terrible... And how people can tell you they love you when in turn they just (ab)use you...

EDIT: PS: I read the Master of Sanctity excerpt on the BL Blog. *OUCH* *steals Astelan*

[Phoebus]

As I am responsible for both, I can say with some confidence that Asmodai is certainly hardline, but I hope it comes across as believable in Master of Sanctity. There's a difference between what can be conveyed over the course of 1,000 words of background text covering a whole lifetime and the subtleties of character and motivation made possible by concentrating on a single incident across the breadth of a novel.

Gav, out of curiosity, why were the authors' names not included with those articles? Is there a list out there that shows who wrote what?

Beyond that, while I certainly respect the limitations you had to deal with, I can only offer my perspective as a reader of the end product. For what it's worth (it's one opinion, at the end of the day, and I imagine it's trumped by many others!), there was a frustrating element to Asmodai that I thought carried over from Ravenwing to an extent. While part of the Dark Angels' theme is that they will do extreme things in the name of their calling (especially as relates to the Hunt), it sometimes feels like more emphasis is put toward eliciting a reaction from the reader ("They did what? Why?!?") than having their actions necessarily make sense within the context of their situation.

I mean, I get it. Asmodai is an exemplar of the fanaticism that exists within the Dark Angels Chapter. He will do awful, awful things in the name of the Hunt. I expect him to be no less ruthless than Torquemada - if he also happened to be a genetically-engineered superman sworn to never-ending war. Asmodai threatening “... the execution of every Scout drawn from the world of Narcium, accusing a whole generation of being gene-tainted due to their tardiness in answering his questions during instruction” just struck me as the equivalent of winking your eye to the reader, though. The fact that this is one of two episodes that illustrate Asmodai "getting in trouble" and basically getting out of it by "doubling down" (by flouting the will of his Supreme Grand Master, at that) only reinforces that. It strips at the grim majesty that I imagine not just the chapter, but the character possessing as well.

Again, take it with a grain of salt. For what it's worth, you got my $7.99 as soon as I realized Master of Sanctity was available for pre-order.

It was great fun to write Asmodai, particularly in contrast to Sapphon, and I hope readers enjoy their interactions.

I'm looking forward to it - 8 days until I can download!

[Words_of_Truth]

Are you doing more Raven Guard Novels/Novellas? If so any chance we may see some interaction with the Nomad Predation fleets?

[Midgard]

Hi Gav! I just finished "Ravenlord" a few days ago, and really enjoyed it. It did, however, raise a few questions, and I was wondering if you could give your perspective.

First, there is an interesting mention of a wide assortment of Legionaries who now follow Corax, including members of Shattered Legions, and even some loyalists from the Traitor Legions. I find it interesting considering the theme of mistrust in the novella, and RG's (and Corax's) experiences with Alpha Legion infiltration (not to mention the nature of "Ravenlord'"'s ultimate enemy). Is the presence of the non-RG amongst the surviving Legion a ticking time bomb, and is this something you expect to play into the continued self-doubt experienced by both Corax and his surviving sons?

Second, I noticed the presence of Navar Hef again, also in a minor role, but now promoted to Lieutenant. I have a definite impression that at some point, he will have a large role to play in the overall Raven Guard storyline. Is he going to be more prominent in a future story/novella/novel, especially as he is, in my opinion, one of the more likeable characters amongst the Raven Guard?

Thank you in advance!

[Phoebus]

Gav,

I expressed my concerns and criticisms about Asmodai on this thread. I thought it only proper to come back and offer you kudos for the way you handled that character in Master of Sanctity. I didn't think it could be done, but you did that crazy old fanatic justice! I extend you even more congratulations on bringing Sapphon to life. Well, not just him, I guess. I really liked reading the little hints and details that you offered about the Inner Circle and its membership. And the revelations on the psycho-indoctrination practices of the Dark Angels - and to what degree and on whom they can be employed - left my jaw hanging!

A complete side-note: too often, I feel the technology of the setting is treated as an afterthought in the novels. Thank you for going the extra mile and giving us a perspective on how things like Terminator armour work. Really neat!

Also, I don't care if it ends up being an editing issue. I'm going to assume you knew exactly what you were doing when you had the Dark Angels' strike cruisers use lances. I always assumed the Unforgiven could care less about the Imperial Navy's demands (secret Legion!), and it felt so good to see those in action!

All in all, thanks for a fun book and congratulations - I can't wait for The Unforgiven.

* I had two complaints here. One was about the means by which Sapphon and Asmodai arrived at a consensus; sorry, but I honestly hoped Belial or Ezekiel were going to simply tell Sapphon to stop at that point.

The other was the surprisingly short time it took before Belial was willing to take on brand-new inductees to the Deathwing on missions as dangerous as the one you featured. I'm not going to lie to you: it felt a little rushed. Though the Deathwing is defined by its secret mission and it being a "circle of trust" (if you will), it remains the Chapter's elite. It isn't just the equivalent of another Chapter's First Company... it's exactly that. It's the Chapter's elite, and it felt odd having someone as unproven and raw as Telemenus being sped through that kind of induction. I certainly can't imagine any other Chapter doing so, and it didn't feel as if Belial was really that pressed to reinforce his numbers then and there. I'm interested to hear your thoughts about this.

(I don't believe the above constitutes as a spoiler; I will edit as needed, if anyone feels otherwise)

[Liliedhe]

I'm not yet done with Master of Sanctity, but there was something I want to ask about...

*spoilered, because it crossreferences Grey Angel from the HH*

Spoiler: Just who Cypher actually is, is of course a mystery. That it was a title, not really a person muddles the waters of course. I was rather amused by Astelan's nonchalance on being questioned about him - because to him it's really just an old title and a costume.

Which made me wonder. Lord Cypher (the person wearing the title on Caliban, to distinguish from Cypher, the FAllen from 40K) has a few appearances in the HH Dark Angels stories. IN Fallen Angels, his identity is revealed as 'nobody special'. In Grey Angel he shows up again, helping Garvi and Qruze escape from Caliban. At this point, Qruze actually recognises him, which is a very good indication that the Lord Cypher they met is not the person wearing the title in Fallen Angels.

For quite a while, I thought that it was Zahariel - except a) Zahariel also is not someone Qruze could have met and b) Zahariel definitely can't wear the costume in 40K. Now I'm wondering, if the person showing up as 'Lord Cypher' is actually Astelan? That would very much explain why he plays up the title aspect more than the person - "hey, it can be everyone. It even was me at some point" and it also would lean credence to his insistence he never betrayed the Emperor. Because, he helped the Emperor's Agents actually.

Astelan had a long history in the Great Crusade, so Qruze could easily have encountered him.

Pretty sure you can't answer this, but maybe you can cryptically hint?

[Words_of_Truth]

I'm not yet done with Master of Sanctity, but there was something I want to ask about...

*spoilered, because it crossreferences Grey Angel from the HH*

Spoiler: Just who Cypher actually is, is of course a mystery. That it was a title, not really a person muddles the waters of course. I was rather amused by Astelan's nonchalance on being questioned about him - because to him it's really just an old title and a costume.

Which made me wonder. Lord Cypher (the person wearing the title on Caliban, to distinguish from Cypher, the FAllen from 40K) has a few appearances in the HH Dark Angels stories. IN Fallen Angels, his identity is revealed as 'nobody special'. In Grey Angel he shows up again, helping Garvi and Qruze escape from Caliban. At this point, Qruze actually recognises him, which is a very good indication that the Lord Cypher they met is not the person wearing the title in Fallen Angels.

For quite a while, I thought that it was Zahariel - except a) Zahariel also is not someone Qruze could have met and b) Zahariel definitely can't wear the costume in 40K. Now I'm wondering, if the person showing up as 'Lord Cypher' is actually Astelan? That would very much explain why he plays up the title aspect more than the person - "hey, it can be everyone. It even was me at some point" and it also would lean credence to his insistence he never betrayed the Emperor. Because, he helped the Emperor's Agents actually.

Astelan had a long history in the Great Crusade, so Qruze could easily have encountered him.

Pretty sure you can't answer this, but maybe you can cryptically hint?

Actually..

Spoiler: The new Lord Cypher in the HH novels is in fact the last remaining Knights Lupus, the order that harbored chaotic creatures. The Knights Lupus who became Lord Cypher was a Knight who had been on a quest and returned to find his order destroyed. So he was something at least.

[Phoebus]

I'm not yet done with Master of Sanctity, but there was something I want to ask about...

*spoilered, because it crossreferences Grey Angel from the HH*

Spoiler: Just who Cypher actually is, is of course a mystery. That it was a title, not really a person muddles the waters of course. I was rather amused by Astelan's nonchalance on being questioned about him - because to him it's really just an old title and a costume.

Which made me wonder. Lord Cypher (the person wearing the title on Caliban, to distinguish from Cypher, the FAllen from 40K) has a few appearances in the HH Dark Angels stories. IN Fallen Angels, his identity is revealed as 'nobody special'. In Grey Angel he shows up again, helping Garvi and Qruze escape from Caliban. At this point, Qruze actually recognises him, which is a very good indication that the Lord Cypher they met is not the person wearing the title in Fallen Angels.

For quite a while, I thought that it was Zahariel - except a) Zahariel also is not someone Qruze could have met and b) Zahariel definitely can't wear the costume in 40K. Now I'm wondering, if the person showing up as 'Lord Cypher' is actually Astelan? That would very much explain why he plays up the title aspect more than the person - "hey, it can be everyone. It even was me at some point" and it also would lean credence to his insistence he never betrayed the Emperor. Because, he helped the Emperor's Agents actually.

Astelan had a long history in the Great Crusade, so Qruze could easily have encountered him.

Pretty sure you can't answer this, but maybe you can cryptically hint?

Words_of_Truth shares with you wisdom, indeed.

There is something else you should take from "Grey Angel", which might help with your question. Personally, I think the story suffers not just from too many attempts at subterfuge, but from post-publication edits that make it difficult for everything to sync up nicely (without making some leaps of logic).

The first printings of Descent of Angels implied that the events on Sarosh were the first major campaign of the Dark Angels after being reunited with Lion El'Jonson. Fallen Angels reinforced that, with the Lion actually being one of the last primarchs to be found (50 years or so prior to the Heresy). Subsequent printings, however, have changed that. They have inserted "decades" of campaigning before Sarosh* and place the Lion's discovery more than a century before the Heresy.

"Grey Angel" was written with all this in mind. Now, I will grant you that the reason the Lion recruited

Spoiler: the Lord Cypher we see in Fallen Angels would preclude that man from leaving Caliban for the Great Crusade.

But we know from Fallen Angels, "The Lion", and still other sources, that the Lion was able to get conventional - and unconventional - news from his adopted homeworld.

With that in mind, the argument can be made that

Spoiler: Lord Cypher was recruited for the purposes of helping with the Lion's research into the Great Beasts and the Chaotic taint that plagued Caliban, but that this research was suspended when the Emperor arrived and his own "engineers" took up the efforts alluded to in Fallen Angels.

Given this,

Spoiler: Lord Cypher may have left Caliban with the rest of the legion, since the main portion of his duties would require him to be with the increasingly Calibanite legion.

Hence, when

Spoiler: Qruze

mentions that

Spoiler: Luther fought alongside Abaddon during the Great Crusade (something that originally would have been impossible), the argument can also be made that Lord Cypher is someone he may very well have met on campaign.

I just don't know that

Spoiler: Luther would have made Astelan the Lord Cypher. Remember, the Lord Cypher shown in Fallen Angels also wields the same weapons as the current Lord Cypher. Furthermore, Luther was supposedly fighting to take back Caliban for Calibanites. The novel strongly implies that Luther trusts Cypher rather completely. He is the one individual whom he keeps closest to him throughout the novel, and I don't believe that changes by its end. Furthermore, installing a Terran in the most tradition-based institution would go against the grain of such a struggle.

[Liliedhe]

Alright guys. I'm sure that would make a fascinating discussion, unfortunately this is the "Ask the author" thread, so I can't engage you.

I will just pick up some of your points to clarify my question, which it seems wasn't worded well enough.

Spoiler: I am aware who Lord Cypher in FAllen Angels is. It's just nobody relevant in the grand scheme of things. That he has a purpose in the context of the book I do not dispute. Looking from 40K, he is a nobody.

The Luna Wolves recognise the man underneath the cowl. If they had merely met Lord Cypher on campaign, he'd recognise the costume, not the person wearing it. Even if Knight-of-Lupus-Cypher had been off Caliban, he'd have gone as Lord Cypher and that would be the only identity anybody can know him in.

I never meant to imply that Luther bestowed the Lord Cypher title on Astelan. I just wanted to ask if the person wearing the outfit in Grey Angel was Astelan. Wearing it for whatever reason, like as a disguise. Besides, the Fallen Angel there (that's what he is called in the script) gives the salute of Unity, which indicates he is a Terran or at least old.

[Dennis the Hamster]

Interesting facts and theories on Cypher, but I'm going to refrain from making any specific comments in case I accidentally give you the idea that anyone knows who Cypher is yet...

Gav

[Dennis the Hamster]

Gav,

The other was the surprisingly short time it took before Belial was willing to take on brand-new inductees to the Deathwing on missions as dangerous as the one you featured. I'm not going to lie to you: it felt a little rushed. Though the Deathwing is defined by its secret mission and it being a "circle of trust" (if you will), it remains the Chapter's elite. It isn't just the equivalent of another Chapter's First Company... it's exactly that. It's the Chapter's elite, and it felt odd having someone as unproven and raw as Telemenus being sped through that kind of induction. I certainly can't imagine any other Chapter doing so, and it didn't feel as if Belial was really that pressed to reinforce his numbers then and there. I'm interested to hear your thoughts about this.

(I don't believe the above constitutes as a spoiler; I will edit as needed, if anyone feels otherwise)

Yes and no, to my mind. Is there a bit off narrative-provoked urgency to their acceptance? Yes, while the induction scenes are entertaining and informative they couldn't fill in the rest of the novel for those characters. Weighed against that is the fact that all of these space marines are already 'veterans' by several centuries. I don't mean veterans in the sense of rank, but they certainly know their way around a bolt gun and combat knife. In other Chapters their length of service alone might have qualified them to the 1st Company, but of course the DW have slightly different criteria. Any hesitation on Belial's part would be about dealing with the newly taught secrets of the Fallen and subsequent attitude, rather than any skill deficiencies.

However, I'm glad it didn't ruin the novel for you anyway!

Cheers,

Gav

[Dennis the Hamster]

Hi Gav! I just finished "Ravenlord" a few days ago, and really enjoyed it. It did, however, raise a few questions, and I was wondering if you could give your perspective.

First, there is an interesting mention of a wide assortment of Legionaries who now follow Corax, including members of Shattered Legions, and even some loyalists from the Traitor Legions. I find it interesting considering the theme of mistrust in the novella, and RG's (and Corax's) experiences with Alpha Legion infiltration (not to mention the nature of "Ravenlord'"'s ultimate enemy). Is the presence of the non-RG amongst the surviving Legion a ticking time bomb, and is this something you expect to play into the continued self-doubt experienced by both Corax and his surviving sons?

Second, I noticed the presence of Navar Hef again, also in a minor role, but now promoted to Lieutenant. I have a definite impression that at some point, he will have a large role to play in the overall Raven Guard storyline. Is he going to be more prominent in a future story/novella/novel, especially as he is, in my opinion, one of the more likeable characters amongst the Raven Guard?

Thank you in advance!

For me, part of the mistrust theme, using the newly arrived legionnaires as an example, is Corax reverting a little to his hidden-in-a-prison mentality. Just as then, he is forced by circumstance to take incredible risks, and has only his judge of character and a few simple security measures to protect everything. I return several times in the novella to the idea that it would be impossible for him to progress if he kept second-guessing his past decisions, but the events overtaking him since Ravendelve are making that harder and harder. Whether I get to play properly with some of the non-Raven Guard characters will have to be seen.

And yes, Navar Hef is certainly going to come into his own in the next stories - watch this space. Or maybe a space on the BL website might be better...

Cheers,

Gav

[Dennis the Hamster]

Are you doing more Raven Guard Novels/Novellas? If so any chance we may see some interaction with the Nomad Predation fleets?

Hi,

I don't really know much about the predation fleets, but the little I do know suggests that they're meant to be a post-Heresy strategy I think, a change from the Legion-style fleets that came before? That would rule them out in a literal sense. On the other hand, something that hints at what is to come in terms of Corax's organisation of his fleet assets might be a nice teaser.

Cheers,

Gav

[Dennis the Hamster]

I finished Ravenlord yesterday.

Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. It didn't make me cry, but it made me feel like crying. Given what you said after the last one, I'm pretty sure that was the intention^^. By now, reading HH books has become a rollercoaster and more than a little harrowing on occasion - but it's still so bloody good. Everything that can evoke such emotions has to be, even if they are not pleasant emotions.

Following is a bit of rambling and a question.

Spoiler: I really really liked the discussion of faith and hope and ideology in the book. I have - in the field of my work - read lots of academic discussions there, and - minus footnotes - this is just as complex and in depth.

The book really showed how it all boils down to the human spirit - and neither Space Marines nor Primarchs have any advantage over the normal baseline humans there. They can despair - or hope - just as easily as humans do.

I'm really glad Arendi was not the traitor. I felt so bad for him during his interrogation. And who can ever forgive him for what he did? Certainly Corax is not capable of giving him absolution there...

*tongue in cheek* They should start an Isstvan Survivors Anonymous self help group...

I bet Corax would very much agree with Horus on "functionally immortal is not invulnerable". That part just hurt to read.

The traitor and his last words were... *wince* I'm glad that he remained a complex person. Not merely a no-good scumbag, or a paragon. He was just a person.

Now, for the question(s):

Will we see more of the loyalist Night Lord? So happy he exists.

And what is your take on Lorgar? Did he lie to the abandoned loyalists? Or was it the truth when he told them that he loved them? Personally I feel that Lorgar, more than any other primarch, knows how love can be toxic and terrible... And how people can tell you they love you when in turn they just (ab)use you...

EDIT: PS: I read the Master of Sanctity excerpt on the BL Blog. *OUCH* *steals Astelan*

Some answers:

Spoiler: The Night Lord seems to be a bit controversial in some quarters (not BL towers) but I think he would make a nice adjunct to the freedom-is-lovely-we-should-be-defenders-of-liberty schtick of the RG. A very different attitude to prisoners... Whether he gets any more appearances, I don't know yet.

The Lorgar intervention was important for me to include, because Corax is usually so un-primarchy in that he hides his awe-sum power, is quite aloof much of the time but down-to-earth and comradely when he does mingle. A RG confronted by the full majesty of Lorgar in full charisma mode is going to wonder what king of a dud did they end up with?

For his part, I think Lorgar would not hesitate in using love to corrupt, just as his own twisted love corrupted him. In the abandoned loyalists he sees fresh minds in which to sow the seeds of his vision, a fertile ground for his hopes and dreams. At his heart Lorgar is a proselytiser, and the opportunity to convert to the cause, even if that cause is the ruination of everything, would bring him happiness.

On your other point, I'm glad you liked how the confrontation at the end worked out. When dealing with primarchs I'm reminded of the old comic-book conundrum -

How do you hurt Superman?

Emotionally.

Cheers,

Gav

[Liliedhe]

Thanks for answering my questions.

[Phoebus]

Alright guys. I'm sure that would make a fascinating discussion, unfortunately this is the "Ask the author" thread, so I can't engage you.

Liliedhe, I apologize. I wasn't thinking, and I ignored the whole point of this forum!

[Phoebus]

Yes and no, to my mind. Is there a bit off narrative-provoked urgency to their acceptance? Yes, while the induction scenes are entertaining and informative they couldn't fill in the rest of the novel for those characters. Weighed against that is the fact that all of these space marines are already 'veterans' by several centuries. I don't mean veterans in the sense of rank, but they certainly know their way around a bolt gun and combat knife. In other Chapters their length of service alone might have qualified them to the 1st Company, but of course the DW have slightly different criteria. Any hesitation on Belial's part would be about dealing with the newly taught secrets of the Fallen and subsequent attitude, rather than any skill deficiencies.

Sometimes I'm guilty of overly complicating things - I never thought of it that way!

However, I'm glad it didn't ruin the novel for you anyway!

Ha! Not by a long shot. I'm looking forward to the third book.

Also, two questions - if you have the time:

1. Are you able to give us even an estimate of when we can expect Book Three of the Legacy of Caliban?

2. Regarding the Ravenwing...

Can service in the Ravenwing lead to the Deathwing? Before, I'd assumed it could... but then I also assumed that the knowledge of the Fallen was restricted to the Deathwing. This was largely due to the wording in the old Codex, which, frankly, I'm glad is obsolete. As such, I'd always assumed that the Master of the Ravenwing was selected from those Dark Angels who rose through the Deathwing and were eventually trusted with command of a Company. I figured the Master of the Ravenwing was either the most promising candidate for command, or that maybe it was like Belial and the Deathwing - he commanded a Battle Company before inheriting the First.

Now, though, I'm wondering if promotion to Master of the Ravenwing is restricted to membership of the Ravenwing. The Black Knights seem to be capable of functioning as a "mini-Deathwing" unto themselves. And then there's Sammael's own rise from Black Knight to Master of the Ravenwing (though admittedly that could be because of his stellar service and the late Gideon's own belief in him).

Any chance you can qualify whether it's one or the other, a choice of either one (best candidate, for instance), neither of the two, or simply up to what the Inner Circle thinks is best given the pool of candidates available?

Thanks!