Horus Heresy Order

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Horus Heresy Order

Postby Corrigan Phoenix » Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:22 am

Hey all - I'm just about to start the HH series again, and I'm aiming to read the short stories in the "right" places between the novels/anthologies - anyone have a list of where the short stories go? If not I'll try and come up with one myself, but that's likely just going to end up in a chronological by released order.
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Re: Horus Heresy Order

Postby Major Rawne » Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:53 am

BL have a handy guide on the website for the Heresy series. A quick scan seems to show that it's up to date.

LINK
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Re: Horus Heresy Order

Postby Rob P » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:09 am

The ordering is not spot on (e.g. look at placement of Descent of Angels as one example) but this is great.

Anyone know if Strategem takes place after TUE?
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Re: Horus Heresy Order

Postby Corrigan Phoenix » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:18 am

It SAYS that Stratagem comes before TUE...I've not yet read either of them so can't well comment.

Where would we place Descent of Angels? At the beginning as it's pre-Emperor?
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Re: Horus Heresy Order

Postby Corrigan Phoenix » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:50 am

Another drawback - it includes "The Devine Adoratice" from Imperial Truth, but none of the others from that anthology, and it doesn't include Sedition's Gate whatsoever...where would the rest of IT and SG go in the timeline? Does anyone know?
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Re: Horus Heresy Order

Postby Rob P » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:14 pm

I think there is a good argument that Descent of Angels should be first.

You could also put The Last Church quite early on.

The problem is there are novels that start before Isstvan but finish after it (e.g. The First Heretic), so from a narrative POV strict chronological order becomes pointless.

Also there are other books (e.g. ones with the perpetuals in) where things happen way before even The Last Church.

I'm not sure what stories are in IT and SG off the top of my head.

re: Strategem - It does appear that this takes place after TUE - so it's not a perfect order.
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Re: Horus Heresy Order

Postby Death Nikorps » Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:57 pm

On my website we did this order, every HH stories in order to not be spoiled:

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/29628 ... ylinks.jpg


Maybe it can help you, I worked a lot on this. :)
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Re: Horus Heresy Order

Postby Major Rawne » Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:45 pm

Death Nikorps wrote:On my website we did this order, every HH stories in order to not be spoiled:

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/29628 ... ylinks.jpg


Maybe it can help you, I worked a lot on this. :)

Wowzer! That's pretty impressive.


I've spent much of the day thinking about what order I would put them all in. I might have to mock up some sort of list. Whilst I think that it should largely be chronological I feel some of stories have bigger being read later as flashbacks if you will.
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Re: Horus Heresy Order

Postby sam vimes » Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:57 pm

Lexicanuim is pretty good as well:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Horus_Heresy_Series
"Huron-Fal’s systems were on the verge of shutdown ... ‘This death,’ rasped the voder, ‘this death is ours. We choose it. We deny you your victory.’

"Abandon your fear. Look forward. Move forward and never stop. You'll age if you pull back. You'll die if you hesitate."

"From iron cometh strength. From strength cometh will. From will cometh faith. From faith cometh honour. From honour cometh iron." "And may it ever be so"
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Re: Horus Heresy Order

Postby Xisor » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:22 am

Prospero Burns should be read before A Thousand Sons. That's very important. Also, I think the pair of them should be read right on the back of Battle for the Abyss.

Also, given the few pages of identical text, I think it's a no-brainer to assert that The Outcast Dead and A Thousand Sons happen at, for the last part of the second book and the early part of the first, exactly the same time. I'd contend then that a reading order for that section might best go:
- Battle for the Abyss
- Prospero Burns
- A Thousand Sons
- The Outcast Dead

Absolutely: PB before ATS.
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Re: Horus Heresy Order

Postby Corrigan Phoenix » Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:59 am

Right, in terms of "rules", I'm not splitting up books by chapters; the only thing's I'm going to read piece-meal are anthologies as the stories fall (when appropriate - some I'm going to leave to read within the anthology, like The Last Church and After Desh'ea, as they can be reconstituted as flashbacks).
For placing books, I'll read them in the order of wherever the majority of the story takes place.

- Descent of Angels takes place ENTIRELY within the Great Crusade, so that's shunted to the front.

- Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons were meant to be taken as one piece, however personal preference is making me read A Thousand Sons first, because Prospero Burns is my favourite of the two (I always save my opinionated best until last).

- I'm pushing The First Heretic forward to, as it culminates in the Drop-site Massacre. Therefore I'm placing it after Fulgrim/Reflection Crack'd and before Veritas Ferrum. I think it then gives greater impact to reading Aurelian just after Veritas Ferrum.

- As the website isn't updated to accommodate them yet, I'll be reading Sedition's Gate and Imperial Truth at the end of the series, unless they update it before I get there, as I don't know whats in it and don't want to spoiler myself! (Except Devine Adoratice, which was released singularly to go just prior to Vengeful Spirit).

- Rules of Engagement (from Age of Darkness) takes place 2 years after Know No Fear, so I've put it after the Garro segments of that era, as I know he visits the UM on a recruitment drive at one point then. Also have shuffled Savage Weapons to be just before The Lion from The Primarchs novella collection. Face of Treachery from AoD has also been shuffled to be just before the Deliverance Lost/Corax: Soulforge duo, to greater impact.

Note: I am missing some works, the audio short that follows Outcast Dead (Wolf Hunt) because I didn't want to buy it, The Sigillite because I can't actually find my copy anywhere, Tallarn: Ironclad (because I just don't have it!) and Raptor (audio drama) (If anyone can offer a copy of Sigillite audios I'd be grateful! Or Raptor for that matter, if anyone went to the HH Weekender!).

So without further ado, here's my reading order - (A) = Audio, of course.

Descent of Angels
Horus Rising
Wolf of Ash & Fire
Promethean Sun
Feat of Iron – Primarchs
False Gods
Galaxy in Flames
Flight of the Eisenstein
Fulgrim
The Reflection Crack’d – Primarchs
The First Heretic
Veritas Ferrum – Legacies
Aurelian
Strike & Fade – Legacies
Legion
Battle for the Abyss
Mechanicum
Tales of Heresy
Fallen Angels
A Thousand Sons
Prospero Burns
Nemesis
Age of Darkness
The Outcast Dead
Raven's Flight - Shadows of Treachery
Face of Treachery – Age of Darkness
Deliverance Lost
Corax: Soulforge
Warmaster – Legacies
The Serpent Beneath – Primarchs
Brotherhood of the Storm – Legacies
Know No Fear
Honour To The Dead - Legacies
Garro: Oath of Moment (A)
Garro: Sword of Truth (A)
Garro: Burden of Duty (A)
Garro: Legion of One (A)
Rules of Engagement – Age of Darkness
Fear To Tread
Shadows of Treachery
Savage Weapons - Age of Darkness
The Lion – Primarchs
Hunter’s Moon (A)
Gates of Terra
Child of Night
Kryptos – Legacies
Angel Exterminatus
Tallarn: Executioner
Butcher’s Nails – Legacies
Betrayer
The Purge
Mark of Calth
Eagle’s Talon (A)
Iron Corpses (A)
Riven – Legacies
Tallarn: Witness
Templar (A)
Kharn: The Eightfold Path – Legacies
Vulkan Lives
Scorched Earth
The Unremembered Empire
Death & Defiance
Sins of the Father
Cypher: Guardian of Order – Legacies
Master of the First (A)
Censure – Legacies
Stratagem (A)
Scars
Brotherhood of the Moon
Lucius: The Eternal Blade – Legacies
Wolf’s Claw – Legacies
Thief of Revelations – Legacies
The Long Night (A)
Ravenlord
Grey Angel (A)
Herald of Sanguinius (A)
Devine Adoratice – Imperial Truth
Vengeful Spirit
Final Compliance of 6314
Damnation of Pythos
Serpent – Legacies
Divine Word - Legacies
Bjorn: Lone Wolf – Legacies
Garro: Shield of Lies (A)
The Seventh Serpent
Blades of the Traitor
Heart of the Conquerer – Legacies

Imperial Truth
Sedition’s Gate
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Re: Horus Heresy Order

Postby Corrigan Phoenix » Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:49 am

It seems I'm short one Promethean Sun, though I don't know quite where it could have got to. Never mind, it's not REALLY vital to the workings...
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Re: Horus Heresy Order

Postby Rob P » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:10 am

Is Wolf of Ash and Fire set before Horus rising? (Was it the Ullanor one?). Most impactful read for it might be after False Gods tho.
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Re: Horus Heresy Order

Postby Shaggy » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:19 am

Xisor wrote:Prospero Burns should be read before A Thousand Sons. That's very important.

Why?
They both finish with the attack on Prospero, and both spend most of the book beforehand on events leading up to it - granted, if you're going to be strict on chronology the start of PB is before the start of ATS, but those areas of the books don't really intersect much at all.

I would submit that they should be read in publishing order for 2 reasons, both mainly psychological:-

- we all know what happens in the Heresy, and how it all starts off nice and light (at least on the surface) and gradually gets darker and nastier - hence the 'nicer' and more optimistic feel to "Horus Rising" compared to how things go on later. ATS starts off with that same kind of feeling to it, an overall feeling of 'light', of a sophisticated and intelligent Legion with a civilised homeworld. PB, on the other hand, starts in shadow and pretty much stays that way. I don't think the effect would work so well if they were read the other way around.

- by and large it could be said that the Thousand Sons are The Bad Guys (TM) and the Space Wolves are The Good Guys (TM). In PB, all we see of the XV Legion before Prospero is their manipulative side. We need to see their motivations and ideals, we need to see things from their point of view before it all gets overwritten by their fall. We need to see the tragedy of what they could have been, the failure of their good intentions, and also see the path that they took to get them to the events of the attack on Prospero - otherwise they become just generic bad guys. We need to see them as much more than that.
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Re: Horus Heresy Order

Postby Xisor » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:19 am

For one, they were conceived as being read in the order PB then ATS, albeit released within a month of each other. Dan's epilepsy interfered, sadly for all (most especially himself & family), and the order was rejigged.

Narratively, PB is about the death of the Crusade - about why the Wolves are going through the motions perhaps blind to why Old Night happened at all. ATS on the other hand is a much more personal (for Primarchs/Heresy movers/shakers) story that exemplifies what Magnus did, and why. The 'inside scoop', if you will. Set up the idea that the Thousand Sons are villains, then explore their raison d'etre. (Frankly, Magnus and the Thousand Sons are more interesting in principle than Russ and the
Wolves, but if you're a pup, there's no arguing with you. :P )

I happen to concur that PB is the better story, but it's mournful resonance is much more acute when it underpins Magnus' story. Did anyone read ATS not knowing what happened to Magnus and Prospero? I don't think PB would ruin that. Rather, it makey it all the more bitter.

Reading PB first doesn't devalue it - ATS doesn't add much to PB by knowing it first, but having read PB adds a huge amount to ATS - ATS gets better with PB first.

In my opinion, of course!
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Re: Horus Heresy Order

Postby Shaggy » Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:55 pm

That's a good explanation for your view on the reading order... I still disagree, but I see your reasoning.

Personally, I prefer the 'optimism to pessimism' or 'light to dark' order of things... but I can see how it could work the other way around.
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Re: Horus Heresy Order

Postby Corrigan Phoenix » Sat Mar 14, 2015 1:14 am

Having had to skip Promethean Sun due to lack of being able to find it, I am now on False Gods. I can report that reading it in this order is, so far, still making sense. Some short reviews (warning, some spoilers);

Descent of Angels - Always forget how much I DO enjoy this book, then I get to the last few chapters and it falls short of the rest of the text.

Horus Rising - A great, solid start of a book. The drip-fed information about the legions and the state of everything from Descent of Angels really helps set this up. Interex ending, as always, makes me super-sad.

Wolf of Ash and Fire - This is the first time I've ever read this short. Quick and punctual, like any short should be, and I enjoyed the descriptions of the Big E. Kind of scared of the thought of an Ork that towers over him, however.

Feat of Iron - Second time I've read this one, and I reacted exactly the same way. The main storyline and effect of Ferrus' ordeal is lessened and dragged down a peg or two by the interspersed fighting in the desert, unfortunately. I also feel that, at first, the story focus' too much on his broodiness, almost to the exclusion of all else. I know he's foreshadowed by his feeling of doom, but it feels overdone.
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Re: Horus Heresy Order

Postby Mossy Toes » Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:52 am

Xisor wrote:For one, they were conceived as being read in the order PB then ATS, albeit released within a month of each other. Dan's epilepsy interfered, sadly for all (most especially himself & family), and the order was rejigged.

Narratively, PB is about the death of the Crusade - about why the Wolves are going through the motions perhaps blind to why Old Night happened at all. ATS on the other hand is a much more personal (for Primarchs/Heresy movers/shakers) story that exemplifies what Magnus did, and why. The 'inside scoop', if you will. Set up the idea that the Thousand Sons are villains, then explore their raison d'etre. (Frankly, Magnus and the Thousand Sons are more interesting in principle than Russ and the
Wolves, but if you're a pup, there's no arguing with you. :P )

I happen to concur that PB is the better story, but it's mournful resonance is much more acute when it underpins Magnus' story. Did anyone read ATS not knowing what happened to Magnus and Prospero? I don't think PB would ruin that. Rather, it makey it all the more bitter.

Reading PB first doesn't devalue it - ATS doesn't add much to PB by knowing it first, but having read PB adds a huge amount to ATS - ATS gets better with PB first.

In my opinion, of course!
Having only experienced ATS then PB, and not engaged in the heavy levels of rereading that you, Xisor, have, I feel that I have to come at this from the other angle.

I can't help but feel that reading ATS then PB serves to underline and highlight the sheer naivete of the Thousand Sons. You get their sympathetic story, their side of things--and then you get a deeper look from another perspective that shows just how badly they have been played, and how blindly they have stumbled into the grasp of the entity that is using them for its own ends.

The scenes with Amon in the Council of Nikea, for instance--that would have much more impact with PB read second, showing another reason just why the council went as it did... after you've already seen things play out one way. If you read PB first, you see the underlying manipulations... and then are treated to a powerless, half-blinded re-enactment when you read ATS. Sure, you could argue that it only deepens the pathos and inevitability of the scene, but I think it serves better as a revelation than an exercise in retreading ground that has been covered more completely.
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Re: Horus Heresy Order

Postby Xisor » Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:01 pm

I can get that, sure, but I really don't think it's the takeaway lesson from the books. Or rather: it shouldn't be. There's tragedy, sure, but it's not as much if the Thousand Sons are portrayed as riotously incompetent and naive. Which is what the ATS displays - Magnus really hasn't a bloody clue.

Reversing that, with Magnus' naivety on show to begin with,the Thousands Sons' 'misguided' nobility up front, then you can actually introduce precisely how long Leman Russ has been engineering their death. How cold it is, from the Wolves' perspective, how deluded they are about the righteousness of their position and how grand the scheme has actually been (co-opting Mortarion, for instance?) all to the end of ensuring Leman Russ has his position of executioner.

That's the agonising sadness - that if it weren't for Leman Russ going out of his way, deluding even himself, that 'Magnus is up to something deeper, darker'. That way, the more simplistic view of ATS is preserved - the Thousand Sons have been deceived - by Magnus, Russ and Tzeentch, but it's not necessarily the case that they're wrong.

Read the other way round, with PB second, you have well-meaning yet profound idiots who get apprehended by a particularly vicious, icy Inspector Clouseau.

If you're happy with the idea that the Wolves were right and the Sons were wrong, and that's that, then I don't think you'll get much from reading PB first. I think, perhaps, it really requires a certain openness to the idea that Russ is a malevolent git and that there's a strong possibility he's a necessary part of Tzeentch's plan. If Russ had been stronger, if Russ hadn't done what he'd done, would Magnus have been able to best Tzeentch? Possibly.

I think that possibility, that death of a slim hope (not the PB-second insinuation that the hope was a lie all along, regardless of which way you turned), is a much more entertaining (agonising, tragic, knife-in-the-gut-of-the-brain) way of reading it than simply getting the 'reveal' that people turn on Prospero and do it in.

I'd agree - you see all the internal workings in PB. But because ATS isn't a terribly complex or complicated story, I think the human emotion of it is heightened by knowing the ins and outs of exactly how it's all fallen apart. If, excepting Magnus' own duplicities, you see the work of the Thousand Sons as genuine and well-meaning, then ATS is amplified. You'd observe it all and think "Ah, it's all tragic! Damn you, Space Wolves and damn you, Thousand Sons, for giving them exactly what they want!" and then, at the end, you'd get Magnus' reveal as well.

Again, I think the potency and agony of ATS is heightened by knowing all the reveals of PB well in advance. I don't think they're spoilers, rather they lend the simpler 'honesty' of A Thousand Sons a much more compelling, much more intense flavour. It means that ATS is already layered with huge complexity, with 'between the lines' before you start reading.

If you read them the other way around, with PB second, PB comes across as more of a complexly written, engaging and subtle depiction of an ultimately thin parade of excuses for the Wolves and Russ.

So, if I can summarise - I think PB first gives the complex setup to the story, letting you see all the little details, and makes ATS a kinda fascinating Rube Goldberg machine that now is layered with characters you care about making a final plea to how all they intended was good and decent (and it seems like they might even be telling the truth...).

If you reverse the order, you've got some barely nuanced melodramatic tragedy up front with Magnus having been a bit of a liar, the Thousand Sons being arrogant (yet, bizarrely, exactly as competent as they claimed) and got their comeuppance by the betraying actions of the Space Wolves. And then that's followed up with the Space Wolves' defence being spelled out over the course of a tangentially-related story.

With ATS first, you get the main course, then a largely separate 'reinterpretation' of that main course.
With PB first, you get a well-judged starter and a decent bottle of wine or two which serves to whet the appetite for the main course.

Or perhaps it can be done both ways, according to taste. 8-) (Everyone else must have bad taste! :P )
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Re: Horus Heresy Order

Postby Morning Soul » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:12 pm

Yeah, I am trying figure out which order to read the HH Books in order to get the essence of the whole setting. The Epic Tragedy that ultimately set up the set up the galaxy we all know and love.
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