Dark Vengeance Tie-in Fiction

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Re: Dark Vengeance Tie-in Fiction

Postby shadowhawk2008 » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:12 am

Maestitia wrote:Really good review but this point disturbs me : "the step-by-step nature of the narrative".
Write like a scnario of the battle game is not a little bit boring?
I mean, see the story from so many characters don't bore you? Even if it's talking about The Fallen in the background?

I read 10/10, but it can't be perfect!
What are the negatives points for you? Even if there are minimal?


I normally don't defend my reviews, but I'll make an exception considering the special release nature of the product.

Its not a story that flows like a novel because 1. this is a novella and is less than a 1/3 of the length 2. This is written from the POVs of 12 characters, a style that allows Christian to use the wide range of models from the starter set. And in that respect, it is step-by-step because you get lots of alternating viewpoints that move the story forwards.

And no, it didn't bother me that the story had such a big POV cast. I'm also one of the few people who think that not every Dark Angel story needs to be about the Fallen in as much as that's the big subject. Background stuff happening, allusions and so forth? Great.

For me, the novella IS perfect. It is from an author whose previous contributions to the lore have been in a much shorter format - audio dramas and a really short short story. This is his best work yet and he shows he can handle the lore well and that he understands what he is writing. Also, this is my fourth experience of his work so I can see that he has improved on all of that.

The only downside? its a novella. I wanted more.

Horus Lupercal wrote:The same opinion as my neighbor, this novel is a battle report long and boring, without literary quality. Writing a food commercial purpose, without soul. And the price is very indecent.
:|


I disagree completely. Expecting every story to be on the same level as the best of Graham McNeill, Dan Abnett and Aaron Dembski-Bowden is, no offense, ridiculous. And again, this is a novella where the basic premise is taken from a battle scenario in the new starter set and it is MEANT to show off the stuff in that starter set. As for the price, come on. The eBook is the same as a print novel. BL special release novellas go for 30 pounds........ and don't have eBooks. Not to mention that Christian is a *new* author. The comparison is not the same.
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Re: Dark Vengeance Tie-in Fiction

Postby Maestitia » Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:45 pm

shadowhawk2008 wrote:I normally don't defend my reviews, but I'll make an exception considering the special release nature of the product.

Its not a story that flows like a novel because 1. this is a novella and is less than a 1/3 of the length 2. This is written from the POVs of 12 characters, a style that allows Christian to use the wide range of models from the starter set. And in that respect, it is step-by-step because you get lots of alternating viewpoints that move the story forwards.

And no, it didn't bother me that the story had such a big POV cast. I'm also one of the few people who think that not every Dark Angel story needs to be about the Fallen in as much as that's the big subject. Background stuff happening, allusions and so forth? Great.

For me, the novella IS perfect. It is from an author whose previous contributions to the lore have been in a much shorter format - audio dramas and a really short short story. This is his best work yet and he shows he can handle the lore well and that he understands what he is writing. Also, this is my fourth experience of his work so I can see that he has improved on all of that.

The only downside? its a novella. I wanted more.

Dude I'm convinced. Nice speech, you have detailed I've not been able to see in your review : the huge progress of the author. Like you said, you know all his works, you can judge him better than me.
Personally, I love when a story is written at the first person, I hope Dunn will do the same for his futurs novels.

shadowhawk2008 wrote:I disagree completely. Expecting every story to be on the same level as the best of Graham McNeill, Dan Abnett and Aaron Dembski-Bowden is, no offense, ridiculous. And again, this is a novella where the basic premise is taken from a battle scenario in the new starter set and it is MEANT to show off the stuff in that starter set. As for the price, come on. The eBook is the same as a print novel. BL special release novellas go for 30 pounds........ and don't have eBooks. Not to mention that Christian is a *new* author. The comparison is not the same.


Yes, it's not ADB or McNeill indeed but this kind of novella is here (like you said) to show off the stuff in the starter, so it's logic I ask myself "Hum a story about a scenario? It can be boring."

Anyway, thank you very much for your explainations, very interesting shadowhawk2008!
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Re: Dark Vengeance Tie-in Fiction

Postby shadowhawk2008 » Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:49 pm

You are welcome. I apologise if I come across as defensive. Still working the kinks out in that respect :-)

In a nutshell, Christian is an author that I really want people to try out, and this novella shows off his talent superbly.

To everybody else, if the Purging of Kadillus analogy doesn't work for you, then consider the POV-switching to be similar to that in Dan Abnett's Horus Heresy: Know No Fear!!!
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Re: Dark Vengeance Tie-in Fiction

Postby Maestitia » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:14 pm

shadowhawk2008 wrote:You are welcome. I apologise if I come across as defensive. Still working the kinks out in that respect :-)

No problem dude, I'm worst than you when I defend a book I reviewed :lol:
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Re: Dark Vengeance Tie-in Fiction

Postby Mossy Toes » Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:58 am

shadowhawk2008 wrote:
Horus Lupercal wrote:The same opinion as my neighbor, this novel is a battle report long and boring, without literary quality. Writing a food commercial purpose, without soul. And the price is very indecent.


I disagree completely. Expecting every story to be on the same level as the best of Graham McNeill, Dan Abnett and Aaron Dembski-Bowden is, no offense, ridiculous. And again, this is a novella where the basic premise is taken from a battle scenario in the new starter set and it is MEANT to show off the stuff in that starter set. As for the price, come on. The eBook is the same as a print novel. BL special release novellas go for 30 pounds........ and don't have eBooks. Not to mention that Christian is a *new* author. The comparison is not the same.


Not to cast aspersions on the quality of the work itself (not having read it, I certainly can't judge it), but it strikes me that to defend the novella on the fact that you can't expect "every story to be on the same level as the best of Graham McNeill, Dan Abnett and Aaron Dembski-Bowden" is by no means an unfair expectation--if you want to count it as a 10/10 rated story. I mean, I do expect a 10/10 rated story to be up there with the best of ADB and Abnett. Defending a work on account of the author not having much experience under his/her belt, or that it's supposed to showcase a corresponding kit, or that it shouldn't be held up to the best of the author's peers is all very well and good--except, in my mind, for the fact that a 10/10 story shouldn't have to have that sort of defense.

I suppose my dissatisfaction here is this: a 10/10 story should be flawless; it stands to reason that it cannot be improved upon, as if it could be improved, it could be rated higher. It should be a story nearly without peer, and a rare gem. Dune is there, perhaps. Neverness, which does much the same thing in much the same way but better, is certainly a 10/10 book. I think Toll The Hounds, of the Malazan Book of the Fallen, is another. Still, the point is that these things are incredibly rare and precious. I would call The Emperor's Gift, for all that it's a spectacular book, nooot quiiite there. Of course, that's only my own point of view ( I know that you, 'hawk, rated The Emperor's Gift as a 10/10 work, which I in no way begrudge you).

So my question is this: does Dark Vengeance stand as a flawless (10/10) work in your regard, in spite of your need to defend the author's inexperience, the fact that it's selling the box, etc? Sorry to be a miserable grouch about all this.
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Re: Dark Vengeance Tie-in Fiction

Postby shadowhawk2008 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:04 am

Yes it does. Like I said, my only gripe was that the story is a novella and not a novel.
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Re: Dark Vengeance Tie-in Fiction

Postby Horus Lupercal » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:21 am

This debate is interesting, our opinions are different purpose. Maybe we other French Have Become too we Demanding with the authors of the Black Library.
It is known that we, the French we are deemed to be very critical moaners! :lol:
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Re: Dark Vengeance Tie-in Fiction

Postby emeryt » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:09 am

I will get the novel and audio today (as well as DV starter set :) ). any idea which I should read/listen to first?
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Re: Dark Vengeance Tie-in Fiction

Postby shadowhawk2008 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:21 am

I don't have the audio yet so I'm no help there!
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Re: Dark Vengeance Tie-in Fiction

Postby Malius » Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:41 am

emeryt wrote:I will get the novel and audio today (as well as DV starter set :) ). any idea which I should read/listen to first?


I was wondering this too. I have them both but I would rather read/listen to them in chronological order.
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Re: Dark Vengeance Tie-in Fiction

Postby shadowhawk2008 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:46 am

The audio drama is the prequel.
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Re: Dark Vengeance Tie-in Fiction

Postby Malius » Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:49 am

Excellent, I will whack that on later and 'listen while I paint'.
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Re: Dark Vengeance Tie-in Fiction

Postby Xisor » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:04 pm

shadowhawk2008 wrote:I disagree completely. Expecting every story to be on the same level as the best of Graham McNeill, Dan Abnett and Aaron Dembski-Bowden is, no offense, ridiculous. And again, this is a novella where the basic premise is taken from a battle scenario in the new starter set and it is MEANT to show off the stuff in that starter set. As for the price, come on. The eBook is the same as a print novel. BL special release novellas go for 30 pounds........ and don't have eBooks. Not to mention that Christian is a *new* author. The comparison is not the same.


I'd disagree on a few points there, but ultimately I'm still falling on the same side if for slightly different reasons: different people like different things. For one person (e.g. me), Atlas Infernal is an example of the pinnacle of tie-in-fiction. For another person (e.g. Vivia, by the sounds of things), it... isn't. :lol:

Having said that, the bit I actually disagree on is the 'same level of expectation' bit. Some authors are 'better' than others, that's a given. Being 'new' ought not be an issue (ADB's Cadian Blood and JF's The Last Remembrancer should be happily comparable to other 'new' authors, in many respects).

Moreover, and more to the point of supporting your thrust (if by disagreeing slightly), there's the issue of the likes of Assault on Black Reach and last summer's Storm of Magic novellas. Tie-in capitalising products, but nevertheless I really enjoyed them. The SoM ones especially. In that respect, I'm now intrigued: how will it compare? (Similarly there's remit in comparing it to Dreadfleet and Space Hulk and both WHFB starter-set novellas, though I've myself only read Space Hulk of those - it was alright.)

So, a question to Horus Lupercal & Maestitia (& any other French folk [or just anyone in general]), have you dabbled much in the other product-related books? If not, I strongly recommend the Storm of Magic ones as examples of how this premise can be done very well. :)
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Re: Dark Vengeance Tie-in Fiction

Postby Maestitia » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:44 am

Xisor wrote:I'd disagree on a few points there, but ultimately I'm still falling on the same side if for slightly different reasons: different people like different things.

I'm aggre with you, indeed every body has his préferences BUT this kinf of " product-related books", like you said, is often slim and poor for me.
Xisor wrote:So, a question to Horus Lupercal & Maestitia (& any other French folk [or just anyone in general]), have you dabbled much in the other product-related books? If not, I strongly recommend the Storm of Magic ones as examples of how this premise can be done very well. :)

Personnaly I've read one that you had mentionned : Space Hulk by Gav Thorpe.
And excuse me for this sentence but I've found it just awful...
No intérests, a boring story and a construction like in a Dungeons and Dragon game. (I've nothing against D&D, I'm myself a player and a GM at Deathwatch :mrgreen: )
I mean : monster>gates>tresors or rewards.
Thus, yes I've already dabbed this kind of book and it's because it was very bad (for me) that I've asked to shadowhawk2008 why his perfect 10/10.

Nice talking to you guys ;)
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Re: Dark Vengeance Tie-in Fiction

Postby emeryt » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:11 am

shadowhawk2008 wrote:The audio drama is the prequel.

of that I was aware :)
anyway, in a novella I found a spoiler to the audio

Spoiler: Zadakiel being killed by a Helbrute


, so for anyone who's interested - listen to the cd first.

also, the cd version is amazing - it comes with the second cd (cd-rom in fact) with some graphics (high quality), a ton of wallpapers and a script of AoB in PDF format.
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Re: Dark Vengeance Tie-in Fiction

Postby Therion » Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:43 am

Xisor wrote:
shadowhawk2008 wrote:Err.... can I ask why you didn't like Kadillus?


Poor Prologue & Epilogue going for the comic-goofy orks rather than the orks as a serious, sinister and brutal threat?

I don't know what the problem is supposed to be. They are shown massacring people even in the intro. Both warbosses sacrifice lots of their Orks, cause massive mayhem, kill half of a company of Space Marines and just don't give a fuck, caring only for the loot. That stuff is simply horrifying.
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